Stannis for King!

[Alexius]

True, and irrelevant. It would be a good thing to have hereditary monarchy and peace, but it doesn't matter anymore! The civil war is a fact, and the winner will get to write history books.

True. But Stannis' claim would not be that much stronger. People would wonder: were all Cersei's children really bastards?

So everybody should throw their principles and laws away and degrade to might makes right? What are we arguing about?

[mcb]

Actually, Stannis' competitors are the heirs of the previous competitors, not just Tommen. So, Euron Greyjoy, Tommen, Bran.

False. Neither wolves, nor krakens even wanted the Iron Throne. So it's still a contest between Stannis and the ranking Cersei's bastard.

And a king does not have to be chosen only among those who have previously declared themselves king, it can be anyone who suits the role of king, among the characters we know of.

Well then, that changes the parameters a little. Brynden Tully. Tyrion. Davos. A pity Jeor Mormont's dead those just from the top of my head. If we choose a king from all the characters in the books, it could be a very long thread.

[mcb]

So everybody should throw their principles and laws away and degrade to might makes right?

I'm not saying they should, i'm saying they did, and any king-hopeful should at least embrace the reality. And in reality, since his whining didn't impress that many people, Stannis' options were A: give battle, get his ass royally kicked (pun intended) and effectively help Joffrey, B: bend his knee to Renly. Well, also hidden option C, assassination slash kinslaying, but he's still in denial about that.

Of course, he can always stomp his foot and keep repeating "it's not fair, it's not fair". Come to think, Stannis is a bit like Viserys with army. BTW, if he's such a big fun of legitimacy, why doesn't he help Targaryens regain the kingdom? Mad King Aerys is dead, so that's excuse is no longer valid.

[Smashing Praise]

Meh. Stannis and Davos struggle so hard, against impossible odds, for so little gain. While Dany curb stomps her cardboard enemies with the power of deus ex machina.

The beauty of Stannis is that he doesn't want to be king.

This and your previous statement are probably my favorite things I've ever heard on the board. Thank you.

[Alexius]

I'm not saying they should, i'm saying they did, and any king-hopeful should at least embrace the reality. And in reality, since his whining didn't impress that many people, Stannis' options were A: give battle, get his ass royally kicked (pun intended) and effectively help Joffrey, B: bend his knee to Renly. Well, also hidden option C, assassination slash kinslaying, but he's still in denial about that.

So? What's the problem with option C beside the kinslaying? Kinslaying is a personal issue, not a political. My initial point was that assassination of an enemy general isn't so unambiguously dishonorable as Lord Godric had stated.

BTW, if he's such a big fun of legitimacy, why doesn't he help Targaryens regain the kingdom? Mad King Aerys is dead, so that's excuse is no longer valid.

Because Targaryens lost their legitimacy to Baratheons and there is no Targaryen contenders at the moment?

ETA: I think there's a chance that Stannis choose B if he hadn't knew that Renly would die (thanks to Mel's visions).

[Yarl Snow]

False. Neither wolves, nor krakens even wanted the Iron Throne. So it's still a contest between Stannis and the ranking Cersei's bastard.

Well then, that changes the parameters a little. Brynden Tully. Tyrion. Davos. A pity Jeor Mormont's dead those just from the top of my head. If we choose a king from all the characters in the books, it could be a very long thread.

Well, from the premise "Stannis is the best King Westeros could have hope to get right now." I would say that we can choose pretty freely. It does not say "Between Stannis and Tommen, Stannis is the best king Westeros could hope for." like you implied.

You were using a simplified logic to this statement, which does not really fit. Westeros is full of people contending for power, Mace Tyrell, for one, Euron Greyjoy for another, Cersei in her own power (not Tommen's), Littlefinger (via proxy of Sansa). Among all these people in the books, I still say Stannis makes for a decent king. Which also happens to be what Lord Varys' post was about.

[Lord Godric]

So? What's the problem with option C beside the kinslaying? Kinslaying is a personal issue, not a political. My initial point was that assassination of an enemy general isn't so unambiguously dishonorable as Lord Godric had stated.

It is when it is your brother. You can not separate the two. Stannis was bitter, and hated his brothers for things that were not their faults. He hated Renly for getting Storm's End and being well-loved and trying for the Crown when it was his, even though Renly didn't know that when he first started his rebellion, and because he was slighted by Renly's behavior at their parley. Stannis is a bitter fool, and there is no spin that can make his assassination of his brother using dark magic an honorable act.

[mcb]

So? What's the problem with option C beside the kinslaying? Kinslaying is a personal issue, not a political. My initial point was that assassination of an enemy general isn't so unambiguously dishonorable as Lord Godric had stated.

If we take Stannis' words at their face value, he didn't do it. He chose A.

Because Targaryens lost their legitimacy to Baratheons and there is no Targaryen contenders at the moment?

No, they didn't lost legitimacy, just most of them got killed. No fancy legal arguments, just a sword, a hammer and a Clegane. Legally, the throne belonged to the next one in succession line. And as for Targaryens in exile, it's safe to assume he knew about them. Small Council knew, and Stannis was on the Small Council.

[Yarl Snow]

It is when it is your brother. You can not separate the two. Stannis was bitter, and hated his brothers for things that were not their faults. He hated Renly for getting Storm's End and being well-loved and trying for the Crown when it was his, even though Renly didn't know that when he first started his rebellion, and because he was slighted by Renly's behavior at their parley. Stannis is a bitter fool, and there is no spin that can make his assassination of his brother using dark magic an honorable act.

I think you missed my post

[Alexius]

You can not separate the two. Stannis was bitter, and hated his brothers for things that were not their faults. He hated Renly for getting Storm's End and being well-loved and trying for the Crown when it was his, even though Renly didn't know that when he first started his rebellion.

Can you please give some quotes on Stannis' Renly-hating? He certainly resented him, but did he really hate him?

You can not separate the two.

I think you can. There's personal level and there's political level, but YMMV.

Ok, lets discuss kinslaying. The question is what is considered a kinslaying?

Personal participation in brother's death (even without conscious intention to harm)? Then it depends or whether or not we consider "shadow baby" part of Stannis. Is it his shadow or not? If it is, is it kinsalying when somebody uses your shadow to kill somebody?

Direct order to kill you brother? We have no indications of such order. It likely was a Melisandra's personal initiative.

Fighting a war against your brother which probably could lead to his death? Looks too broad.

My opinion:

Stannis' personal "physical" participation is a question of "magical physic" and is not so relevant. Stannis didn't kill Renly, Melisandra did. Stannis didn't order Melisandra to do it. He has no direct personal responsibility for the act.

Stannis waged a war against Renly and unintentionally provided means (his life energy and general support) for the act to Melisandra so he has indirect responsibility for his death.

Melisandra was technically Stannis's subordinate so he has political responsibility for his death.

Is it considered kinslaying? I don't know, but don't think so. But Stannis certainly has quite a heavy personal moral load nevertheless. But so do many other characters (those of them who has conscience and awareness to feel it).

[Lord Godric]

ASoS, p 411, Davos POV:

I do not think that Stannis was aware that Melisandre performed these assassinations. Though I can't say I am 100% sure, some of his actions seems to imply he did know.

I don't think that is true at all. Here is a quote from before Renly died: ACoK, Prologue

"Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him [Renly] dead."

Cressen was horrorstruck. "Fratricide...my lord, this is evil, unthinkable...please, listen to me."

Lady Selys gave him a measured look. "And what will you tell him, Maester? How he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?"

Stannis clearly knew that he would have some part in the death of Renly, it was obvious that even Maester Cressen picked up on it. That also doesn't include the fact that Stannis apparently has to have sex with Melisandre to give birth to this shadowbabies, and if Melisandre was really with Stannis the whole evening that Renly died, they he would have seen her give birth to the shadow. And then we have Cortney Penrose's death. What was Stannis sending Davos and Melisandre to do if not assassinate Penrose? Again he would have had to have sex with Mel prior to shipping her off to Storm's End, he would have seen her pregnant, and then see her return not pregnant. The quote you provided seems like Stannis simply rationalizing what happened, and trying to convince Davos (and maybe himself, who knows) that he had nothing to do with Renly and Penrose's death, but that is not true. From the very beginning of ACoK he knew he was going to partake in fratricide.

[DurararaFTW]

It is when it is your brother. You can not separate the two. Stannis was bitter, and hated his brothers for things that were not their faults. He hated Renly for getting Storm's End and being well-loved and trying for the Crown when it was his, even though Renly didn't know that when he first started his rebellion, and because he was slighted by Renly's behavior at their parley. Stannis is a bitter fool, and there is no spin that can make his assassination of his brother using dark magic an honorable act.

Stannis resented his brothers, and while I agree they are not Renly's faults, though that is neither here nor there; Everyone in the Seven Kingoms seems to know Stannis as an utterly uncomprimising man about the law, and Renly knowing he has little claim to the throne with and elder brother and as far as he knows two nephews from his other older brother, claiming himself King for literaly no reason beyond "people like me more then you", isn't gonna get any quarter from him anyway, but how are they not Roberts faults?

Robert disowned Stannis in favor of their younger 8 year old brother of the lands heditary to the house Baratheon when Stannis himself was but a teenager and Cersei confirms that Robert meant it as the slight Stannis took it for, he passed him over for Hand, he passed him over for Warden of the East, in favor of a man that has disavowed any rights to hold titles such as "Warden of the East", Robert actually beat Stannis to his own wedding bed on his wedding night, with the bride's sister, and produced a bastard right there.

[Alexius]

If we take Stannis' words at their face value, he didn't do it. He chose A.

It's hard to say what his expectations were considering all these Mel's visions. And we don't have Davos POV around that point so we don't know for certain what Stannis had planned. He certainly wouldn't yield but it doesn't mean that he would commit a military suicide by battling Renly there and then.

No, they didn't lost legitimacy, just most of them got killed. No fancy legal arguments, just a sword, a hammer and a Clegane. Legally, the throne belonged to the next one in succession line. And as for Targaryens in exile, it's safe to assume he knew about them. Small Council knew, and Stannis was on the Small Council.

Do you have quotes from Weterosi laws? Are you sure that there is no exceptions for mad kings who sadistically murder their vassals without any good reasons?

It's more of a principle then an exact law.

[mcb]

Well, from the premise "Stannis is the best King Westeros could have hope to get right now." I would say that we can choose pretty freely. It does not say "Between Stannis and Tommen, Stannis is the best king Westeros could hope for." like you implied.

You were using a simplified logic to this statement, which does not really fit. Westeros is full of people contending for power, Mace Tyrell, for one, Euron Greyjoy for another, Cersei in her own power (not Tommen's), Littlefinger (via proxy of Sansa). Among all these people in the books, I still say Stannis makes for a decent king. Which also happens to be what Lord Varys' post was about.

Contending for power? Oh, sure, but that's half of the Seven Kingdoms! Not only feudal overlords, but also Varys, Bronn and Timmett son of Timmett, everyone wants to get more powerful than he was yesterday. But we're talking about possible occupants of the Iron Throne, and for now it means one or another Robert's heir, because nobody else wants it. Or if they do, they keep it to themselves.

OTOH, if we agree to looks wider than just Robert's immediate family, then I have to disagree about Stannis being the best possible king. He has shown nothing to impress me, so far (which was already discussed in this thread).

[Luin]

It's a quite interesting situation for the High Septon. Both Tommen and Stannis are unacceptable options for him and there are no other legitimate heirs. Would he try to seize power for himself?

Definitely, but I could see a peasant revolt on account of him being an even more fanatical version of Stannis.

Robert reigned for fifteen years, not a particularly long time. During that period there was not much 'peace and order': there was one major rebellion, his Hand was assassinated by his enemies, the kingdom went severely into debt, and there was serious strife among the major powers of the kingdom. Most crucially of all, he failed to secure an orderly succession, leading to a major war. Most of these things (although not the Greyjoy Rebellion, to be fair) were caused by Robert's near-total disinterest in the actual business of ruling, or at least that was a contributory factor. There's a certain amount of nostalgia in the comparisons that are made to Aerys' rule, of course, but from what we know the early years of Aerys on the throne - pre-Duskendale - were actually much more peaceful and orderly.

While certainly not contesting that; while Robert was alive everyone except the Greyjoys and Starks were willing to make their wars clandestine. The Starks and LF were directly responsible for the ongoing civil war; kidnapping Tyrion was a very stupid move but would you have really listened to Cersei over Ned in Robert's situation?

[Lord Godric]

Can you please give some quotes on Stannis' Renly-hating? He certainly resented him, but did he really hate him?

I don't have the time to pour through all the books, but since I was just in the Prologue of ACoK:

"Your brother has been the Lord of Storm's End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen-"

"His," Stannis broke in, "why by rights they should be mine. I never asked for Dragonstone. I never wanted it. I took it because Robert's enemies were here and he commanded me to root them out. I built his fleet and did his work, dutiful as a younger brother should be to an elder, as Renly should be to me. And what was Robert's thanks? He names me Lord of Dragonstone and gives Storm's end and its incomes to Renly? Storm's End belonged to House Baratheon for three hundred years; by rights it should have passed to me when Robert took the Iron Throne."

"He [Robert] need a man's strength to rule here, and Renly was but a child."

"He is a child still," Stannis declared, his anger ringing loud in the empty hall, "a thieving child who thinks to snatch the crown off my brow. What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger, and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. This is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be a king. I ask you, why did the gods inflict me with brothers?"

"I can not answer for the gods."

"You seldom answer at all these days, it seems to me. Who maesters for Renly? Perchance I should send for him, I might like his counsel better. What do you think this maester said when my brother decided to steal my crown? What counsel did your colleague offer to this traitor blood of mine?"

And that is just from two pages in ACoK. It is evident that Stannis does not just resent Renly, but flat out hates him.

I think you can. There's personal level and there's political level, but YMMV.

Perhaps one can, but Stannis did not.

ETA: I am actually going to go into this a little bit more. The scene I provided about fratricide in my post above shows that while others may have thought of this politically, Stannis was thinking personally. I'll extend the text from the small part I quoted.

Yes," she answered, "but if Renly should die..."

Stannis looked at the lady with narrow eyes, until Cressen could not hold his tongue. "It is not to be thought. Your Grace, whatever follies Renly has committed-"

"Follies? I call them treasons." Stannis turned back to his wife. "My brother is young and strong, and he has a vast host around him, and these rainbow knights of his."

"Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him dead."

Cressen was horrorstruck. "Fratricide...my lord, this is evil, unthinkable...please, listen to me."

Lady Selyse gave him a measured look. "And what will you tell him, Maester? How he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?"

While Selyse may be thinking of the political advantages of killing Renly, Stannis is just irate that Renly has committed "treasons" against him. He doesn't even need to be convinced of the political advantages, he just quickly turns to Selyse and begins wondering how it can be done.

[mcb]

(Re: Targaryens' legitimacy)

Do you have quotes from Weterosi laws? Are you sure that there is no exceptions for mad kings who sadistically murder their vassals without any good reasons?

Tywin and Robert were pretty sure. That's why Tywin had Rhaegar's children murdered, and Robert was grateful for that lovely gesture.

[DurararaFTW]

Robert reigned for fifteen years, not a particularly long time. During that period there was not much 'peace and order': there was one major rebellion, his Hand was assassinated by his enemies, the kingdom went severely into debt, and there was serious strife among the major powers of the kingdom. Most crucially of all, he failed to secure an orderly succession, leading to a major war. Most of these things (although not the Greyjoy Rebellion, to be fair) were caused by Robert's near-total disinterest in the actual business of ruling, or at least that was a contributory factor. There's a certain amount of nostalgia in the comparisons that are made to Aerys' rule, of course, but from what we know the early years of Aerys on the throne - pre-Duskendale - were actually much more peaceful and orderly.

You mean the twenty years that Tywin did everything? Yes, those were orderly. But what do you mean he failed to secure an secure sucession? Tywin Lannister himself was oblivious to his childrens incest and in all the times Joffrey came to visit Casterly Rock (which was established to have been frequent enough) he didn't catch onto it either, even serving as Joffrey and Tommens hand, he died clueless. Robert thought he had two brothers and two sons. How Renly got it in his head that he deserved to be King is hardly Robert's fault. Only the gods know how that happened.

[Yarl Snow]

I don't have the time to pour through all the books, but since I was just in the Prologue of ACoK: And that is just from two pages in ACoK. It is evident that Stannis does not just resent Renly, but flat out hates him.

Perhaps one can, but Stannis did not.

ETA: I am actually going to go into this a little bit more. The scene I provided about fratricide in my post above shows that while others may have thought of this politically, Stannis was thinking personally. I'll extend the text from the small part I quoted.

While Selyse may be thinking of the political advantages of killing Renly, Stannis is just irate that Renly has committed "treasons" against him. He doesn't even need to be convinced of the political advantages, he just quickly turns to Selyse and begins wondering how it can be done.

Actually, all I hear from Stannis is anger at how Robert treated him, and anger that Renly is so young and foolish. I don't think it is out of line to be angry about losing one's birthright. They are slighting him, he has a right to be angry. One can be very angry with one's siblings without wanting to kill them.

Also, I think you are underestimating Stannis' focus on his role as Azor Ahai. He has accepted the responsibility of the future of the world, rightfully or not. Renly had no such higher ideals, nor does any of the pretenders. If you believed yourself to be AA born again, what would you do in Stannis' place?

[Nnorb]

Lets take a quick look at the contenders in the War of Five Kings:

Joffery Baratheon

Renly Baratheon

Stannis Baratheon

Robb Stark

Balon Greyjoy.

Only one of them is left. Stannis rules.