Baramos Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 They are pretty lax about the celibacy oath on the wall. If he tried to marry her or publicly claim his son it would be different, but Mole Town is filled with bastards from the Wall.He hasn't really dishonored the spirit of his oath. He is still loyal to the Wall. It makes him different from characters like that bard dude that deserted in Braavos. He is not as bad, he is merely human, and pretty much all the characters in these books have faults like that.Like I think Jorah has quite a bit of honor...despite trying to make money off of selling some people into slavery. If he had no honor he wouldn't feel so guilty over all the dishonorable things he's done. It's kind of paradoxical but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Like I think Jorah has quite a bit of honor...despite trying to make money off of selling some people into slavery. If he had no honor he wouldn't feel so guilty over all the dishonorable things he's done. Jorah feels guilty? I thought he blamed everything on Lynesse...and, well, anyone but him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Sam is another good example... Of course I love the character, and of course he is one of the most likable chaps in the series. that being said, there are guys for centuries that have lost their heads for breaking their vows to the wall. He is an oathbreaker. by nature of his sexual relationship with Gilly. Does this mean I want to see him dead, certainly not, but it does mean that the character is willing to lie and dishonor himself.He's not exactly Mance Rayder. And I don't recall that he ever lied to anybody about that, maybe withholding the truth would be a better way to put it (which is essentially lying) but I doubt there are few men of the NW that haven't visited Mole Town's whores a time or two. Also his righteous actions clear up the one discretion he had committed, which seems relatively minor in the eyes of the NW commanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Sand bastard of AZ Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Jorah feels guilty? I thought he blamed everything on Lynesse...and, well, anyone but him.Yeah, he doesn't even take personal responsibility for spying on Daenerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 They are pretty lax about the celibacy oath on the wall. If he tried to marry her or publicly claim his son it would be different, but Mole Town is filled with bastards from the Wall.He hasn't really dishonored the spirit of his oath. He is still loyal to the Wall. It makes him different from characters like that bard dude that deserted in Braavos. He is not as bad, he is merely human, and pretty much all the characters in these books have faults like that. Yeah... tell that to the guys that have lost their heads for violating them. I am not trying to say that Sam is "evil". I am just saying that he isn't 100 percent completely good. The apologizes that you give him (which I do as well by the way) come only because we "know" him. So far, there is not a single character that we know about that is all "good" or all "evil" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Because there so many redeeming qualities about the Mountain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Because there so many redeeming qualities about the Mountain. I do not know any good things about Gregor, but I only know him from what I have been told about him and what we have seen. I bet his Mother probably loved him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Because there so many redeeming qualities about the Mountain....and Joffrey is tragically misunderstood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Negator Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I think this discussion fleshes out why the Hound is one of Martin's most layered and flavorful characters. On the HandoftheTower site, he is ranked 5 in favorite characters. He is clearly violent, but, as I have discussed in depth in my past posts about him, he is an angry man looking for a purpose. He is philosophical in his own way, and is perhaps the most free person in the books. He chooses to protect Sansa while under contract to serve Joffrey, then chooses to abandon him, then chooses to defend Arya when he has no real self-serving purpose to do so. In this world of binding duty and heiriarchy, he is a true independent contractor, who fights and dies only for what he wants. For this reason, I think he will play a role yet again. There are theories about him being the Faith's champion, and finishing revenant Gregor. I would not be surprised if the "canine connection" plays out and he ends as an ally of House Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I bet his Mother probably loved him....I highly doubt this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 ...and Joffrey is tragically misunderstood... :laugh: He was going through puberty. And the fact that his grandfather married his cousin and his mother and father were brother and sister, doesn't help matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I highly doubt this.This post made me laugh... I just pictured myself at a convention with George RR Martin sitting on a boardGRRM : Next question... You sir, the one with the Star Wars Tshirt onMe: ex..excuse me sir.. I was just wondering if the Mountain's mother loved him?GRRM : looks incredulously and shakes his head.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duskfire Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I think this discussion fleshes out why the Hound is one of Martin's most layered and flavorful characters. On the HandoftheTower site, he is ranked 5 in favorite characters. He is clearly violent, but, as I have discussed in depth in my past posts about him, he is an angry man looking for a purpose. He is philosophical in his own way, and is perhaps the most free person in the books. He chooses to protect Sansa while under contract to serve Joffrey, then chooses to abandon him, then chooses to defend Arya when he has no real self-serving purpose to do so. In this world of binding duty and heiriarchy, he is a true independent contractor, who fights and dies only for what he wants. For this reason, I think he will play a role yet again. There are theories about him being the Faith's champion, and finishing revenant Gregor. I would not be surprised if the "canine connection" plays out and he ends as an ally of House Stark.Nah, he had amazing closure. As awesome as the Hound is as a character, it was a fitting way for him to go. I would be semi-dissapointed if he came back, because if he did, he would probably be a completely different person and not the Hound we remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Sand bastard of AZ Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Nah, he had amazing closure. As awesome as the Hound is as a character, it was a fitting way for him to go. I would be semi-dissapointed if he came back, because if he did, he would probably be a completely different person and not the Hound we remember.That is precisely why his return is so plausible. Martin has a penchant for bringing characters back as or turning them into completely different people, not those we remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duskfire Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 That is precisely why his return is so plausible. Martin has a penchant for bringing characters back as or turning them into completely different people, not those we remember.But why is that a good thing? I like the Hound we have now, which is why I think his permanent death is an awesome way to end of the character and move onto other things. For instance, if Davos had come back after the Blackwater bitter and twisted and psychologically unstable, it wouldnt have been the Davos that we (I anyway) love. Sometimes its good to change a character, but other times its good to know when to let them go and give them their rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Imagine giving birth. Then imagine giving birth to a baby the size of a ten year old boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Sand bastard of AZ Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 But why is that a good thing? I like the Hound we have now, which is why I think his permanent death is an awesome way to end of the character and move onto other things. For instance, if Davos had come back after the Blackwater bitter and twisted and psychologically unstable, it wouldnt have been the Davos that we (I anyway) love. Sometimes its good to change a character, but other times its good to know when to let them go and give them their rest.When did I say it was a good thing? I was merely speaking on behalf of the reality of Martin's style thus far. When has Martin written his characters with the sole intention of giving them the fates we all want for them?Edit: I love Davos too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I tend to think that Beric's sword breaking is a sign someone has a use for Sandor yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr reader Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I think it's hard to break down Martin's characters into "good" and "bad" camps. Someone might be driven by what he regards as honor or necessity and still do reprehensible things. Also, because of the POV structure, we see certain characters only from the perspective of people who dislike them for one reason or another (and some others only from the perspective of people who have reason to respect or support them)-- which is bound to color our perception of them, too, especially when we don't get a lot of other background info to go on.Certainly, some characters seem to be professional monsters (the Mountain, Amory Lorch, the Goat). But we don't hear much of their motivation, either.In the case of the Hound: we see him from a variety of perspectives, and hear bits of his backstory, enough to know he's more complicated than just being a "monster." He's a desperately angry and unhappy man. He's done awful things (but on the other hand, he was commanded to do those things by the royal family he'd sworn to serve). On the other hand, he seems almost gentle in some of his scenes w/Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedave Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yes, the Hound really is that bad. And yes, the rest of the world is only slightly better than he is. That's why we grow to love him: He exposes the utter unremittant bullshit everyone else uses to hide their deeds.Just went through his brilliant scenes with the Brotherhood without banners, where he tears them down off their high horses and shows them exactly what they are, while they prove it with their words. The only thing that ever made them better than basic outlaws was one man: Beric Dondarrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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