[ADWD SPOILERS] Davos 1

[CryFenril]

Oh, and for the record, I would find it very un-George-ish to have the books end with Jon and Dany cheerfully flying dragons up and down the Wall, toasting Others into yummy little s'mores while they hold hands and sing "Kumbayah".

Somehow, I just don't see him wrapping things up that neatly, even though that's essentially what we're being led to hope for.

[KyleLitke]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we didn't really know anything about Wylla.

Is there any reason she couldn't have been a fishermans daughter?

I also took it as more evidence (if not quite hard evidence) against R + L = J, or at least that there was certainly more going on with Ned at the time than I'd originally assumed

COULD she have been, I suppose, but we do know she ended up in Dorne, because she was with Edric Dayne. It seems like a bit of a stretch if, as it's implied here, Ned knocked up a fishermans daughter up there, tossed her a bag of silver, went south, took care of the war, picked Jon up on the way back north, and then for no apparent reason the Fisherman's daughter wandered all the way to Dorne. Oh yeah, and for some reason she's perfectly open with the fact that she's Jon Snow's mother, and the people where she was from know all about it, but Ned makes it this huge secret that he won't tell anyone about (except for perhaps Robert). I dunno, that seems like an enormous stretch for the fishermans daughter to be Wylla and somehow end up in Dorne (again, the story was that Ned knocked her up, tossed her some silver, and left, not that he brought him with her in which case he could have left her in Dorne). And if the fishermans daughter isn't Wylla then the story becomes really nonsensical, since Ned (Captain Truthteller) would have been lying to Robert to protect some random peasant girl who isn't of any importance.

This really feels like a red herring to me, but we'll see. Wylla being the mother and not being the fishermans daughter makes more sense than this story, and Ashara/Ned and Rhaegar/Lyanna makes even more sense, considering it would then give a reason for Ned to lie about it that isn't really apparent if it's Wylla or Fisherman's Daughter.

[chris.t.]

Wouldn't a boy fathered that early be too old to be Jon? Wouldn't this be well before Ned got to Riverrun to wed and bed Cat?

Whether R+L=J or not, I don't think this "Jon Snow" is "our" Jon Snow.

[taal]

Sounds like a bastard of Robert, Ned probably paid the girl off out of honor and the story got twisted for some reason.

[Aganerral]

I agree, feels more like a Red Herring. I'm more inclined to believe Edric Dayne saying that he and Jon were milk brothers in Dorne (erm, now thatI think about it, might not actually be Dorne but somewhere in that vicinity)...it doesn't seem likely that the fisherwoman would end up there somehow.

[ThinPaperWings]

I agree, feels more like a Red Herring. I'm more inclined to believe Edric Dayne saying that he and Jon were milk brothers in Dorne (erm, now thatI think about it, might not actually be Dorne but somewhere in that vicinity)...it doesn't seem likely that the fisherwoman would end up there somehow.

I think it's a red herring too. I'm not trying to start a whole R+L=J debate here, but I would argue from a literary standpoint that George invested way too much in that Robert/Ned conversation in AGoT for some disappointing payoff (i.e., Jon's mother is a random woman). This feels like a throwaway rumor, George having a little fun with the fans.

It's always interesting, on a general note to see Davos negotiate his circumstances. Even though I had read a synopsis from an earlier chapter reading, I enjoyed reading this myself.

[AndyFatBastard]

Oh hi. First post.

It's always interesting, on a general note to see Davos negotiate his circumstances. Even though I had read a synopsis from an earlier chapter reading, I enjoyed reading this myself.

Yeah the man is either cleverer, luckier or more charismatic than he thinks he is. I've entertained the possibility that he's being looked after by the Drowned God. He was reborn from the sea after the Battle of the Blackwater. Perhaps it was for some purpose.

[The Lanky Umber]

I took it as being that because Ned was so tight lipped on who Jon's mother was, and the island was somewhat remote and untouched by the war that the fisherman's daughter who helped Ned became the woman who gave him his bastard son. Sort of their claim to fame at that time? local gossip becoming fact after all the years?

[witless chum]

While it would be hilarious for Jon to just turn out to be Ned's bastard with some woman after all the ones and zeroes spilled over it, the strongest evidence for Jon not being what he was claimed to be, IMO, was always that Ned would have no reason for the extreme secrecy with Catelyn and Jon himself. The fact that there's this rumor on the Sisters doesn't touch on that bit.

I could see Ned not wanting to talk about it because it was embarrassing to his sense of honor. But he was hardcore and unfair with getting rid of the servant who gossiped about it. Ned, IMO, wouldn't be that unfair to the anonymous servant (Ned is always kinder and more solicitious of the smallfolk than any of the other lords we see) or short with his wife just to avoid his own embarrassment. Ned was remarkably unselfious in general.

[PetrusOctavianus]

The wiki says Robert slew Randyll Grafton when he conquered Gulltown, but in this chapter it is said that it was Marq Grafton he slew?

[Tammy]

I'm in agreement that the rumor is a red herring. It just doesn't add up.

I was a little surprised that Davos was so sure he was safe due to guest rights, seems like everyone would be a little iffy about that after the Red Wedding.

I surely hope that Manderly is planning on getting some vengeance with the Freys at least.

And I completely forgot that Rikkon and Osha were heading that way.

[Lady Snark]

I also forgot where Osha & Rickon were heading. It has been so long since we heard of these two and where they are.

Definitely a red herring. There are numerous rumors re Jon Snow's mother and this is just another. As has been said, there is no reason for Ned to have this super secrecy on who Jon's mother is, if it were any of these random women.

Which is just another reason I have to dislike Catelyn. She was married to Ned long enough to know of his honor code that he lives by. Cat should have known that there was a lot more to Jon's story other than he was just Ned's bastard and that Ned had a really good reason to keep it secret and probably a life or death reason. Cat should have realized that her honorable Ned would not have married her, gone to war and immediately screwed another woman, so that she had time to give birth to his bastard all within just one year before Ned returned to Winterfell. Hello, McFly? Does not add up nor fit in with Ned's characteristics. I understand Cat believing it at first, but the dumb bitch should have figured there was something more to it after getting to know Ned better.

But back to Davos. I was giddy when I got to this chapter thinking Davos is still alive!! Then realized that this coincides with the start of AFFC. :frown5: But I am happy to get more Davos and I am crossing my fingers he doesn't really die at Manderly's hands.

[Tammy]

I also forgot where Osha & Rickon were heading. It has been so long since we heard of these two and where they are.

Definitely a red herring. There are numerous rumors re Jon Snow's mother and this is just another. As has been said, there is no reason for Ned to have this super secrecy on who Jon's mother is, if it were any of these random women.

Which is just another reason I have to dislike Catelyn. She was married to Ned long enough to know of his honor code that he lives by. Cat should have known that there was a lot more to Jon's story other than he was just Ned's bastard and that Ned had a really good reason to keep it secret and probably a life or death reason. Cat should have realized that her honorable Ned would not have married her, gone to war and immediately screwed another woman, so that she had time to give birth to his bastard all within just one year before Ned returned to Winterfell. Hello, McFly? Does not add up nor fit in with Ned's characteristics. I understand Cat believing it at first, but the dumb bitch should have figured there was something more to it after getting to know Ned better.

But back to Davos. I was giddy when I got to this chapter thinking Davos is still alive!! Then realized that this coincides with the start of AFFC. :frown5: But I am happy to get more Davos and I am crossing my fingers he doesn't really die at Manderly's hands.

I agree regarding Cat. Even if he did, I don't see the intense hatred she has for him. I can understand her being a bit slighted at first, but after what 14, 15 years? There's no reason she has to dislike him so much so that she wished he would have fallen instead of Bran or wouldn't have allowed him to stay at Winterfell when he went to KL. I imagine that Lady Stoneheart would kill both him and Ned for her perceived betrayal.

I really hope Davos stays alive as well. There aren't many decent and honest people left. I hope Manderly is fooling both the Freys and the Lannisters!

[ShaggyDawg]

When Godric Borrell was eating with Davos, he mentions a boat that was bound for Braavos but crashed with 40 chests of pepper, a pound of saffron, etc. Was this boat crashing mentioned in any previous books? I feel like it was, but maybe I'm wrong.

[hesitantreader]

If he fathered Jon before he married Cat it would make Ned as Jon's father a lot more believable. After all it would keep his honer intact... or perhaps he now has two "sons"? Anyway I am sure we will learn more before the series is over.

[Gurthnar]

That theory about Jon from some random lord comes to me as not only unlikely, but also near impossible. I do not see Ned nailing some random woman in an open boat while he should be rowing like hell not to get smashed on some rocks.

That said, I still do not wholy buy the R+L=J theory and I hope it will get smashed later.

[Old Blue Eyes]

A few points that may keep the R+L=J theory alive....

* Ned was happy to send Jon to the Wall. Perhaps for his safety should anything happen to Ned in KL? Someone knows the truth, Ned knew that, and probably was please that Jon chose to take the black. Jon even made the comment that his father (Ned) didn't warn him of the realities of the Wall.

* Ned seemed to feed the idea that Jon's mother was Wylla to Robert. If Jon's father is indeed R, and mother is L - Robert would have Jon offed instamatically.

* Obviously Cat's hatred for Jon proves that she only knows the perceived alabi that Ned is the father, Wylla the mother.

[Ser Leo Targaryen]

Yeah, I too felt that Martin is only trying to stir the pot, and confuse us a bit.

I buy the R+L=J theory 100%. But I feel that if he wanted to really confuse us it would be better to give some more information about Wylla, because this new theory is just too vague and doesn't make any sense!

But just because I back this theory doesn't mean I'm expecting Dani and Jon to fly their dragons over the wall together by the end of the book.

Martin has always told that not everybody will have happy endings, and we expect no less from his writing!

[voodooqueen126]

So in this chapter Davos learns that Tyrion killed Tywin Lannister.

So it occurs sometime after

12/01/300 ASOS Tyrion 11 Escapes, kills Tywin

13/01/300 AFFC Cersei 1 Night of Tywin's death

13/01/300 AFFC Cersei 2 Tywin's funerals

13/01/300 AFFC Jaime 1 Tywin's funerals

Does Lord Borrel mention when this happened? I have leant my book to a friend?

Also

And Lord Borrel distinctly mentions that Lysa Tully was killed by her singer.

So this means that this chapter occured after 30/03/300 ASOS Sansa 7 Only cat

and possibly even after

05/04/300 AFFC Sansa 1 Nestor Royce visits the Eyrie.

[Shaggy Rickon]

I think people are taking the wrong message here. Ned was what 16 or 18 or something at the start of the rebellion? He almost had gotten killed in a ship wreck. He was freaked out. Mourning his father and brother. Found a little solace in a willing fisherman's daughter. It happens. Left her some money and moved on. It is just a tale. Ned's honor and his guilt come after the act.

Now for our jon, this would prove that he is a targaryen. Here is how:

Jon was born in Dorne where he shared a wet nurse with edric dayne. A wet nurse is only needed when the mother dies. So that means jon's mother is dead. She could be ashara or lyanna. My bet is lyanna. Because in my opinion it is irrational for a mother with a newborn babe to jump out of a tower unless there is some serious post pardem depression. So Ned finds lyanna with her newborn babe. Rhaegar is dead. Jon is an orphan. Ned can't just leave his nephew to die. So he takes him along to raise as his own. But how to explain it? He has fathered a bastard he knows now. And he knows the bastard's name is jon. So he calls lyanna's babe jon and claims him to be that bastard.

For a lie to be believable it must have some truth. Ned has sired a bastard which he feels guilty about but the jon snow we know is not that bastard.

At least that is my theory. Do with it as you wish my children. Howland reed can confirm it if we ever see him.