Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Xray the Enforcer

[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 11

30 posts in this topic

Jon is working on his own downfall, that's a sure thing. Nevertheless, Tormund is a fucking awesome character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he is proving to be a very effective leader though but when he's finally tried with w/e betrayal/calamity is coming up, I hope he proves to be a more Tyrion-like leader than Ned-like one, for the sake of everyone who's alive.

I think Ned gets an unfair rap. He's a good leader for the North. He made tough decisions, maintained the respect of every house, and didn't bother with triviality or make needless enemies (Northern enemies, that is). It also seemed like he was good at managing resources and raising future leaders.

Of course, he wasn't cut out for the Iron Throne, and he would have more enemies at the Wall than at Winterfell, but I think everyone's in too much of a hurry to consider him an idiot. There's a reason the Starks ruled for so long at Winterfell before the recent events turning everything to shit. Honor's not all that bad. Look what's happening to the Freys and even the Lannisters now.

I'm not convinced Tyrion was that great a leader, as much as I like him as a character. Blackwater was impressive, and he was able to check the power of Cersei and Joffrey, but he didn't do much for the realm (which admittedly would be hard during a war) and he's overwhelmed by personal issues and can be petty and rash (not as much so as siblings, but...).

That parallels why I'm much more impressed with Jon than Dany. His tough decisions are based on what needs to be done, Dany's are based on what she needs to do. She wants to reclaim her throne, but she has no vision for why the throne needs her. I do appreciate her desire to help out the lowly and end cruelty, but while it's fun to cheer on her victory over cartoonishly awful people like the Great Masters and the warlocks it's hard to say she's a good ruler. Westeros doesn't have slavery or straight up sinister organizations; most of its monsters are bad people in a system that would work better if good people were in power.

Jon, if he died in the next chapter, would still have saved thousands of men, women, and children with a minimum of bloodshed, greatly increased the manpower on the Wall, diminished the force of The Others, arranged for provisions throughout the winter, saved the gate at Castle Black from being broken and possibly prevented the Horn of Winter from being blown, and increased the Watch's knowledge of the world beyond the Wall. That's a lot to accomplish in a short time as Lord Commander. There's a lot that can go wrong, but with a less capable Lord Commander things would already have gone a lot worse. He held his own against Stannis wanting more power over the Wall without pissing him off and losing his support. He kept the brothers together so far, and even if a faction steps up to oppose him that's no new problem; his reign started with a bitterly divided Night's Watch on the verge of being taken over by Janos Slynt.

If he does stay in power, his chances to make an impact on the culture and strength of the Watch are immense. But even if he loses it, he made the right decisions for the realm, even if they were unpopular.

Ultimately Jon is about the Night's Watch and Dany is about Daenerys Targaryen. Jon would be just as happy not to be Lord Commander if the Wall was in good hands. Dany can't even consider not being queen, whether it's good or bad. They've both shown a lot of bravery and vision and made personal sacrifices but Jon just wants to do his job and Dany wants to fly dragons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hail thee, OldCorvid! You said everything I ever wanted to say about this but lacked the rhethorics. Thank you!

I'm not as much of a Jon Snow fangirl as I look like (just think Ygritte's awesome all by herself), but I've never thought honor equals stupidity. Sometimes, life isn't about winning a popularity award. Sometimes you cannot be your kid's best friend. Sometimes you need to get things done, because they need to get done. And I admire Jon's ability to put his ego aside despite his life-long desire to be acknowledged. I don't compare Jon to Dany that much, but I definitely compare him to Theon, because they were both denied validation, yet still Jon made it his strength and Theon made it his weakness.

Greetings,

Steph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Steph. As you can see I'm new here but I'm really enjoying the level of discussion on this site.

I think Theon is a great contrast; they both grew up in Winterfell but were not Starks. Theon was in a different situation because he didn't have half-siblings, but still you can see they both took different approaches to the situation. Both wanted to be Starks to some degree, but what Theon wanted was more the glory and recognition, whereas Jon wanted to actually play the role - honor and all.

One thing that was always impressive about Jon Snow that stands in contrast to Theon is his respect for women, which came despite him not knowing who his mother was and with Catelyn wanting nothing to do with him. I credit it to his connection with his sisters, especially Arya, which is something Theon lacked; but that's not to excuse Theon. It's just interesting that you can really see in this series how important family and mentors are to how people turn out, but also that different personalities will respond differently to a similar set of influences.

What we end up with is Jon defending the North and Theon helping to destroy it (although maybe with a shot at redemption)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, indeed I've been rather bored since Stannis left.

As for Jon... Ugh, comparing the Jon threads to the Dany threads is kind of reducing my faith in humanity. People are over and over again saying "Look at Jon! He's such a great leader!" and "Look at Dany! She's a terrible leader!" But where exactly is the evidence for that? The proof's in the pudding as they say.

Situation at The Wall:

There will soon be thousands more useless mouths to feed at the wall, and I don't care how much money they are getting from Braavos, where is the food supposed to be coming from with all the harvests destroyed by war?

Jon is brusque and rude with his colleagues, never giving an inch, never compromising even slightly. He is showing high levels of preference for his wildling men (no matter his constant claims that he's "not half wildling") and common boys over the older, more experienced, and highborn commanders. It's understandable but it's not wise.

He sent away every single one of his good allies to the other parts of the wall, and why?? This was way back in his 2nd and 3rd chapters, I think. Grenn, Pyp, Maester Aemon, Sam, everyone. Yes now he has Horse and Sable but he needs his true brothers to protect him. I think this was extremely unwise.

I don't blame Jon. I rather like him now. He's taking action FINALLY (my biggest problem with him in the past was that he never took any decisions himself but was always forced into them). I think he's doing the best he can, but I think it's only fair to look at what he's doing objectively. He has prejudices, he has blind spots, and they are going to cost him eventually. The only thing that I think could save him is a giant attack by The Others, which IMO will not come this book. Also Stannis returning would also help (I hate that we still don't know the fate of the Battle for Winterfell - cmon already!)

Bless this post. I think Jon is doing a fine job, but I also think Dany is doing a fine job. Either of them have different situations, and are doing the best they can in that situation. People mistake Dany for being bad but doesnt realize her situation is far worst than Jon~s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bless this post. I think Jon is doing a fine job, but I also think Dany is doing a fine job. Either of them have different situations, and are doing the best they can in that situation. People mistake Dany for being bad but doesnt realize her situation is far worst than Jon~s

In what way is it worse? I wouldn't say that it is worse...

She made few stupid decisions, she ended up in Mereen...yes, fighting slavery is admirable, brave and honorable, but it seems like she is destroying everything she reaches. She came to the foreign city, which has its own history, rules, culture etc, and said that she is the queen of this city, why would the city elite except her easily as a queen? I wouldn't. She had no right to claim the throne of this city...so they fight against (I am not defending them, I just see from their point of view). She wanted to save, but got just more destructions.

I am not saying she is bad, I've never thought she is. Dany is ignorant in some matters (history of her family, for one),sometimes simply stupid, naive, even kind sometimes and sentimental, but not bad. She wanted to be the queen, she got what she wanted...

Jon's situation is no better: wildlings, destruction, cold, a little of NW left, as well as there is no union in there, the iron throne pressure and Stannis's pressure, not food for winter, finally the Others (no weapon against them)...and yet he was able to save people, which has nothing to do with him having easier situation. It is about person, actually, and decisions he made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO Jon is doing the right thing. He has turn a menace into an ally, by understanding their woes.

But, for me, the leading charater in the chapter is Val. I guess she's longing for something and Thormunn is well aware of. We had a clue before, whe she made sure that Jon hadn't slain Jorl.

Mayhaps the dagger in the night is about Val raping silly Jon (Ygritte got just short of it before).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that in a ruined society the honest and good men are sometimes seen as foolish... And that's what happened to Ned. He is one of the most honorable men in the all history (except for the Jon thing but we still doesn't know the real story so...).

Concerning to Jon, I think he is the man that the wall need right now. He is making some bold and dificult choices, but regarding the circunstances, those choices are needed. The night watch can not face both the Other and the Wildlings so I guess it is better to make peace with the Wildlings.

He is risking too much? Yes, but considering his character, I think he is doing what a Lord commander need to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never thought I would say this, but I am a little bored by Jon. And Bran.



I agree that Jon is making the right and difficult choices. Had GRM written him discussing some of the choices with other Crows, he would not have alienated his brethren. But that would not have gotten knifed, and we had to have a cliffhanger. It will be interesting to see how he returns. I hope we don't have to suffer him as a direwolf the rest of the series.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hate the fact that you get the feeling that something bad is going to happen to Jon. Nevertheless, I believe he's doing the best that could be done in his situation, there's just so many stuff going on the North for one person to handle.



Btw, I missed Tormund a lot. Definitely my fav secondary character.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites