whats going on with Sansa?

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Oh that LF, the dastardly villain... *swirls moustache*

but he doesn't have a clue :D

I really really hope we get some LF/Bolton/Frey death next book. We fans need some release!

[noshowjones]

I had to go back and reread that section. I think her faulty memory is a product of a mistake by the author.

[brashcandy]

I had to go back and reread that section. I think her faulty memory is a product of a mistake by the author.

GRRM has said that it was intentional, and is somehow significant.

[littlespider]

People, the GRRM troll has spoken on a possible San/San reunion:

And here's the old Sansa comic for those who haven't seen it (copied from an old thread):

Part 1:

http://alciha.deviantart.com/art/Sansa-s-Dating-Woes-part-one-91000891

And Part 2:

http://alciha.deviantart.com/art/Sansa-s-Dating-Woes-part-two-91001036

[Tully to a T]

People, the GRRM troll has spoken on a possible San/San reunion:

And here's the old Sansa comic for those who haven't seen it (copied from an old thread):

Part 1:

http://alciha.deviantart.com/art/Sansa-s-Dating-Woes-part-one-91000891

And Part 2:

http://alciha.deviantart.com/art/Sansa-s-Dating-Woes-part-two-91001036

Loved the second Sansa's Dating Woes cartoon -- have to repeat a comment I saw on that site "I love Sansa giving the thumbs up to Sandor storming her room."

[Starbird]

What I think is also important is that Littlefinger imagines Sansa is completely friendless. He thinks he has broken her down, and that now she is totally dependent on him. He speaks of wrapping a cloak around her shoulder and having the whole North rally around her, but she has already wrapped a cloak around her own shoulders. He kisses her, but she is already thinking of another kiss. Yes, he can teach her about pawns and players, but I think she will decide where her future goes.

Very well said, as usual. I think you've hit the nail on the head about LF, too, in thinking Sansa is completely friendless. If possible, it makes him even more vile. (And wrong! I'm sure his assumption and his desire for her will be his undoing.)

[Ser Alaster]

Theory: both the kiss and the bloody cloak represent the loss of illusions. In the case of the cloak, it no longer represents knightly virtue, and reflects Sansa's awakening to this realization as well. The kiss is part of an awakening too. It is a different kiss from the sweet, gentle ones, and she needs to radically reform her world view. However, much of this is happening unconsciously, and so Sansa's "rebellion" isn't something that is made immediately aware to the reader. The kiss is misremembered but she needs to invest in that memory to facilitate a revolt against her long held ideals.

Hope this makes sense!

cool, never saw it that way

[Winterfell is Burning]

Theory: both the kiss and the bloody cloak represent the loss of illusions. In the case of the cloak, it no longer represents knightly virtue, and reflects Sansa's awakening to this realization as well. The kiss is part of an awakening too. It is a different kiss from the sweet, gentle ones, and she needs to radically reform her world view. However, much of this is happening unconsciously, and so Sansa's "rebellion" isn't something that is made immediately aware to the reader. The kiss is misremembered but she needs to invest in that memory to facilitate a revolt against her long held ideals.

Hope this makes sense!

It does make sense. Great theory.

[Alais]

I think brashcandy has a great theory about the meaning of the kiss and the cloak to Sansa.

I've been interested in the meaning of the whole cloak gesture to Sandor as well. Since the kiss didn't really happen, at this point it doesn't have any meaning for him. It might possibly later if Sansa confronts him about it.

I think Sandor's discarding the cloak is his rejection of both his role as the Lannister's dog and his membership in what was usually a "knights only" club, the Kingsguard.

He left the cloak, which had been a symbol of his role as Joffrey's protector for Sansa. I think that protective symbol is important. His loyalty is transferred from Joffrey and the Lannisters to Sansa, even though she isn't ready to go with him.

The transfer of protection is the symbolic meaning of the exchange of cloaks in the wedding ceremony - it may well foreshadow their future. But then, this is GRRM, it may not.

Just my ideas.

[White Fang]

Maybe the kiss actually did happen? Even though it wasn't mentioned in the actual scene, maybe she remember's being kissed because she was kissed? Possibly by someone after the Hound left without her noticing?

[littlespider]

Maybe the kiss actually did happen? Even though it wasn't mentioned in the actual scene, maybe she remember's being kissed because she was kissed? Possibly by someone after the Hound left without her noticing?

Dontos was the next guy who barged into her room after the Hound left. He is also a drunk who has trouble with boundaries towards Sansa. And he's tried to kiss her before.

[Été]

Maybe the kiss actually did happen? Even though it wasn't mentioned in the actual scene, maybe she remember's being kissed because she was kissed? Possibly by someone after the Hound left without her noticing?

Nah, GRRM said it wasn't in the original scene and the memory is false. She's pencilled that one in all by herself. She doesn't think about it at all in the aftermath of the battle, and by the start of ASOS, she just feels sympathy for the Hound and isn't sure why she kept his cloak; there's nothing about a kiss until much later, when she's having girly time with the Tyrell cousins.

For all Sansa's ideals, it's rather interesting that her fantasy of her first kiss isn't something pretty or romantic, it's all quite brutal: being kissed hard amongst darkness and blood and green fire.

[White Fang]

I'm sorry, this probaly isn't relevent, but has anyone else noticed that there's a weird parallel between the past Brandon/Cat/Petyr triangle and the current Sandor/Sansa/Petyr triangle?

I mean it's mentioned elsewhere that Sandor does have that Stark look (dark hair + gray eyes) and Ned said that Brandon was a lot wilder than he was when he was young (something about how both he and Lyanna had the "wolf blood") and there are numerous similarities between Cat and Sansa in terms of looks as well as,at least superficially, in personality. And of course Petyr is still Petyr. But can you imagine what it would do to Littlefinger? He's been carefully manipulating events for months (years?) at his point so he can be the most powerful man in the seven kingdoms (I mean even at the moment he controls the Vale and the Riverlands, plus it's pretty obvious he wants Winterfell) with a younger, even more beautiful proxy for the girl who once rejected him: only for Sansa to ruin everything by falling into the arms of the Hound and sending him straight back to his first and most crushing defeat. His clever machinations all bringing him back to the exact same point he started off at?

As though the gods (the olds ones by preference) were saying: "No, this is the plan, you upjumped commoner."

If that doesn't drive him crazy it'll only because the Hound buries an axe into his head before he can take it all in.

[3LittleBirds]

I'm sorry, this probaly isn't relevent, but has anyone else noticed that there's a weird parallel between the past Brandon/Cat/Petyr triangle and the current Sandor/Sansa/Petyr triangle?

I mean it's mentioned elsewhere that Sandor does have that Stark look (dark hair + gray eyes) and Ned said that Brandon was a lot wilder than he was when he was young (something about how both he and Lyanna had the "wolf blood") and there are numerous similarities between Cat and Sansa in terms of looks as well as,at least superficially, in personality. And of course Petyr is still Petyr. But can you imagine what it would do to Littlefinger? He's been carefully manipulating events for months (years?) at his point so he can be the most powerful man in the seven kingdoms (I mean even at the moment he controls the Vale and the Riverlands, plus it's pretty obvious he wants Winterfell) with a younger, even more beautiful proxy for the girl who once rejected him: only for Sansa to ruin everything by falling into the arms of the Hound and sending him straight back to his first and most crushing defeat. His clever machinations all bringing him back to the exact same point he started off at?

As though the gods (the olds ones by preference) were saying: "No, this is the plan, you upjumped commoner."

If that doesn't drive him crazy it'll only because the Hound buries an axe into his head before he can take it all in.

Dude (or chick). I want to kiss you right now. OMG, I love this whole thing so much! I would LOVE for that to be the straw that drives LF just straight-up nuts. I cannot even explain how much I love the above bolded line.

[White Fang]

Dude (or chick). I want to kiss you right now. OMG, I love this whole thing so much! I would LOVE for that to be the straw that drives LF just straight-up nuts. I cannot even explain how much I love the above bolded line.

Dude, and thanks.

[Urien the Ragged]

you know how i know littlefinger's plan with sansa isn't going to work? he explains it. so, either he's got a different plan, or his plan is doomed. plans never work in these books unless the reader knows nothing of them.

[3LittleBirds]

Dude, and thanks.

I use dude pretty much genderlessly (that's definitely a word, I'm sure of it) but I didn't want to freak out anybody, so I thought I'd clarify :D

Also, I'm quoting your theory over in the TTTNE Sandor thread, in Forum Games, because I really really like it. Feel free to stop by if you ever feel like a more spam-heavy, free-wheeling thread. We try to stay on topic, but it's so hard...

[3LittleBirds]

you know how i know littlefinger's plan with sansa isn't going to work? he explains it. so, either he's got a different plan, or his plan is doomed. plans never work in these books unless the reader knows nothing of them.

Yeah...sorta like a Bond villain :D

[Alais]

I'm sorry, this probaly isn't relevent, but has anyone else noticed that there's a weird parallel between the past Brandon/Cat/Petyr triangle and the current Sandor/Sansa/Petyr triangle?

I mean it's mentioned elsewhere that Sandor does have that Stark look (dark hair + gray eyes) and Ned said that Brandon was a lot wilder than he was when he was young (something about how both he and Lyanna had the "wolf blood") and there are numerous similarities between Cat and Sansa in terms of looks as well as,at least superficially, in personality. And of course Petyr is still Petyr. But can you imagine what it would do to Littlefinger? He's been carefully manipulating events for months (years?) at his point so he can be the most powerful man in the seven kingdoms (I mean even at the moment he controls the Vale and the Riverlands, plus it's pretty obvious he wants Winterfell) with a younger, even more beautiful proxy for the girl who once rejected him: only for Sansa to ruin everything by falling into the arms of the Hound and sending him straight back to his first and most crushing defeat. His clever machinations all bringing him back to the exact same point he started off at?

As though the gods (the olds ones by preference) were saying: "No, this is the plan, you upjumped commoner."

If that doesn't drive him crazy it'll only because the Hound buries an axe into his head before he can take it all in.

Also in the Brandon/Petyr/Cat thing, Brandon deliberately spared Petyr (as a favor to Cat I think).

No way Sandor would do that.

This is a good idea.

:thumbsup:

[3LittleBirds]

Also in the Brandon/Petyr/Cat thing, Brandon deliberately spared Petyr (as a favor to Cat I think).

No way Sandor would do that.

This is a good idea.

:thumbsup:

I don't know, he might if Sansa asked him to. Although, at this stage in the game, and with the possibility of what's going to happen between Sansa/LF in the next book...she may not stay his hand. But I do think that if when Sandor comes back, he's going to be much more in control of his rage. I can't see him going against Sansa's express wishes either, so if she definitively says No, I don't think he'd go against her.