Did Jon find the Horn of Winter?

[Eyron]

I just read that the CotF were going to bring down the hammer of water on the Neck, but they became friends with the Crannogmen and didn't do it. So the CotF really wanted to separate the north from the south. If the story is true.

@Ipsuel

I don't remember either, but they were not the blue of the wights. I have to reread that too :)

[Shaggydog Stark]

I just read that the CotF were going to bring down the hammer of water on the Neck, but they became friends with the Crannogmen and didn't do it. So the CotF really wanted to separate the north from the south. If the story is true.

@Ipsuel

I don't remember either, but they were not the blue of the wights. I have to reread that too :)

Oh nice point Eira!

@Ipsuel

I thought Benjen's eyes were grey like all the Starks.

[moey reed]

I also have thought about Jons development with Mance and the free folk, he learned pragmatism and leadership from living with them where he only knew duty before. You are absolutely right about the merging of the two role models. He learned who he really is, and that was something else than what he had wanted to be before.

This is one reason I don't think his heritage is very interesting, he is a leader in his own merit just like Mance, and I don't think he will take part in the game of thrones in any other capacity.

:bowdown: exactly! (great post by the way!)

i can't imagine jon being a part of the game and eventually sitting the iron throne (as many R+L=J fans wish) i would rather see him protecting the realms of men instead of ruling them in the end. i just don't see it happening, but that's another story.

i also like your take on protecting the realms of men and that the NW is fighting the wrong enemy. it's like they have forgotten who their "real"

enemy is (kinda understandable after 8000 years) but still even after jon keeps reminding them and is trying to do the right thing, they don't want to see it and that might be their doom.

you make a lot of good points as for the north being protected by the wall. you could be on to something there! it seems as if magic and "endangered" beings, like giants, direwolves, COTF are hidden away and kept safe from the men who have been hostile since they got to westeros.

[ipsuel]

<snip>

@Ipsuel

I thought Benjen's eyes were grey like all the Starks.

Nope, his eyes are blue. I'll have to find the references, but I am pretty sure it was from early in GoT that we found out. Possible a Jon chapter, I'm thinking. That always struck me as odd actually, but nothing came of it so I didn't think of it again until this thread.

ETA: Ok, I found it -- they're actually described as blue-gray. "His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes." (Chp. 5, Jon).

I guess I had forgotten the gray part. I just back checked myself on the wiki here too, and it is stated "blue" as well on that, so someone should probably edit that :) But yes, blue-gray :)

[lynxx]

It probably is the Horn of Winter. No need for it to be large, jewel-encrusted, or otherwise notable in appearance. Whoever hid the stash of obsidian blades and points evidently knew of it's value. Probably Coldhands?

[kephv]

Benjen has blue-grey eyes. I think it's in the first Jon chapter.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Interesting, I always thought they were just plain grey. But then again GRRM always says he forgets eye colors. In AGOT Renly had green eyes, and in ACOK he had blue eyes ;)

[fassreiter]

I just read that the CotF were going to bring down the hammer of water on the Neck, but they became friends with the Crannogmen and didn't do it. So the CotF really wanted to separate the north from the south. If the story is true.

That ties in nicely into the two kingdoms of the north theory, actually. We could still assume that the COTF and the Others are in opposition to one another. So maybe their reappearance has to do something with north vs. south. I could imagine that during the last five to ten years some things changed in the north: The Others (maybe slowly) reappearing. The Ned becoming a respected personality, in fact a King in the North. The Mance becoming King-Beyond-the-Wall. The south going more and more downward with Robert becoming a real bad king and all of the plotting and scheming going into full fractionism mode. All of it is about to come clashing together in the first three books: Ned goes south, the War of the Five Kings ensues, Mance makes for the Wall. And in the background, the COTF and the Others. The COTF might be interested in keeping those 'northern' kingdoms that don't meddle too much into their beyondy places, the Others might be interested in bringing more 'south' to the north to make everything go down in ice and fire. I think dragon magic and Others magic appear similar as well as kind of opposed to that of the COTF. Both dragons and Others have a shrill and destructive quality to them, while the earthy quality of the COTF and their trees seems more conservative and defensive. And now this might be crackpot, but they are those who 'sing the songs of the earth', and the free folk is all about songs and their heart trees. Their king is a singer even. And we have seen the importance of the heart tree and old stories in Winterfell.

So with Jon as a mediating 'king', uniting those two 'conserving' northern 'kingdoms', this might be the way of the COTF. And the Others might be a cause or a consequence of his aforeseen 'arrival'. Yes? This would make sense with regard to those theories that Jon has to establish a balance between Ice and Fire. Maybe he has to reject both (and both 'powers' that come with it) to become a 'king without a crown' like Ned and Mance, more a spiritual 'leader' than a powerful 'politician'.

I think it's also interesting that the Old Gods don't know 'death'. People who die go back into nature and become 'seeing', but powerless. This is also why I think Bloodraven is not a player of the game, I believe in exchange for his treeish 'power' (seeing) he had to reject all factual power. So the northern not-'kings' don't strive for immortality. But didn't the Targaryens tried to become immortal by becoming dragons? There is a lot of necromancy going on in the south actually. Lot's of UNdeads. And the Others even revive the dead in their hundreds. Also I think it's important that neither Ned nor Mance fear death. In fact, the song Mance sings when Jon meets him is about death, and in ADWD he tells Mel he is more concerned with the manner of his death than with dying. We also see northmen as well as wildlings fight with a reckless bravery. Now Jon has died, too, at least we think that. That's maybe interesting regarding the things about mediating people through spiritual kingship. See also 'Ghost'. Who sent the direwolves, by the way?

I think maybe there is some secret to immortality in the north that has to be protected from the south? Because the north doesn't strive for power in itself, but the south does? Civilization will sooner or later try to become immortal. Maybe this is what brought doom on Hardhome and Valyria.

And every fairy story that wants to be more than just a medievally dressed up drama needs to deal with human being's wish to become immortal. It's crucial in The Lord of the Rings, Memory, Sorrow and Thorne, Otherland, Harry Potter, even Star Wars.

I'm crackpotting now, but I like that notion.

EDIT: And about the singing: Could it be that the phrase 'Life is not a song' does only apply to the songs of the south, about knights in shiny armor? Knights are liars, we know that from Sandor. Sansa had to learn that. But could it be that in the north, life is nothing but a song?

[Eyron]

i can't imagine jon being a part of the game and eventually sitting the iron throne (as many R+L=J fans wish) i would rather see him protecting the realms of men instead of ruling them in the end. i just don't see it happening, but that's another story.

i also like your take on protecting the realms of men and that the NW is fighting the wrong enemy. it's like they have forgotten who their "real"

enemy is (kinda understandable after 8000 years) but still even after jon keeps reminding them and is trying to do the right thing, they don't want to see it and that might be their doom.

you make a lot of good points as for the north being protected by the wall. you could be on to something there! it seems as if magic and "endangered" beings, like giants, direwolves, COTF are hidden away and kept safe from the men who have been hostile since they got to westeros.

Exactly!

Jon is a protector, he knows the species of the north, he is friends even with giants, and his best friend is a direwolf. It really looks like they were hidden away, to be safe, but that has been forgotten.

If he can unite the northers peoples both free folk and the northmen they will be very strong.

In any case they will be forced together like Fassreiter pointed out - when the Others come. So he has to unite them or they will fight both eachother and the Others.

I can't see him sitting the Iron throne either, but he could be put there by others, I just think it very unlikely he will be with us in human shape that long. :)

__________________________

That ties in nicely into the two kingdoms of the north theory, actually. We could still assume that the COTF and the Others are in opposition to one another. So maybe their reappearance has to do something with north vs. south. I could imagine that during the last five to ten years some things changed in the north: The Others (maybe slowly) reappearing. The Ned becoming a respected personality, in fact a King in the North. The Mance becoming King-Beyond-the-Wall.

I guess the Kingdom beyond the wall-theory led to something even if I had it a bit wrong perhaps :)

That is why I nurse my crackpots :) Good stuff can come from them!

I think there will be war on to fronts for our gang (the free folk, the northerners and the old species) but maybe not simultaniously (I think the Others will come first, then the dragons), like we discussed way back in this topic, so I agree the Others and the CotF are not working together.

The south going more and more downward with Robert becoming a real bad king and all of the plotting and scheming going into full fractionism mode. All of it is about to come clashing together in the first three books: Ned goes south, the War of the Five Kings ensues, Mance makes for the Wall. And in the background, the COTF and the Others. The COTF might be interested in keeping those 'northern' kingdoms that don't meddle too much into their beyondy places, the Others might be interested in bringing more 'south' to the north to make everything go down in ice and fire.

I think dragon magic and Others magic appear similar as well as kind of opposed to that of the COTF. Both dragons and Others have a shrill and destructive quality to them, while the earthy quality of the COTF and their trees seems more conservative and defensive. And now this might be crackpot, but they are those who 'sing the songs of the earth', and the free folk is all about songs and their heart trees. Their king is a singer even. And we have seen the importance of the heart tree and old stories in Winterfell.

I agree, the Others magic and the Dragons are a different kind from the CotF, the warging and such. I wrote about the different types of magic and the CotF earlier, maybe in another thread though. There is the blood magic like the fire-blood magic Dany used, and the necromancers, the Red Priests and maybe sorcerers. I suspect the Wights, the Others and the sacrifices Craster did have something to do with Ice-magic. But those kinds of magic differ too, like Aemon said, Ice preserves and fire consumes. This has something to do with it I think.

Remember the giants song? (look at my signature...) The CotF and the first men worshipped the earth, but somewhere along the lines blood sacrifices came into play in the north too, I had the idea that this was the cause of the Long Night, that the Others were woken from this, and men had gone corrupt then too. Maybe they stopped singing and the earth magic grew weak and stopped protecting them :)

Jon should REALLY learn to play some instrument and to sing, I always thought so.

So with Jon as a mediating 'king', uniting those two 'conserving' northern 'kingdoms', this might be the way of the COTF. And the Others might be a cause or a consequence of his aforeseen 'arrival'. Yes? This would make sense with regard to those theories that Jon has to establish a balance between Ice and Fire. Maybe he has to reject both (and both 'powers' that come with it) to become a 'king without a crown' like Ned and Mance, more a spiritual 'leader' than a powerful 'politician'.

Yes! He will have to reject both, that is what I think, that type of magic is not healthy :)

So his birth may have started the whole kerfuffle (I love that word)... This is really good, and it fits with the time-line and connects our theories!

Suppose it was his birth that woke the Others...

The Others and the Dragons were happy asleep, the North had it's Stark "kings" (in effect) and were protected from the dragons and the south and the south had it's Targaryens who were sitting safe on their throne, there was balance. Then Rhaegar and Lyanna started a world of trouble by (maybe) producing an heir to the Kingdom? Maybe what Rheagar should have done was to avoid fulfilling the damn prophecy, not try to make it happen :) Maybe it was not a prophecy but a warning! But men forgot that.

Suppose the Others were coming in any case...

Maybe Rhaegar could see the future and knew the world had to come to this from the fire and dragon obsession of his forefathers? Maybe he knew that the rule of his father had caused a rift between the Targaryens and the other lords (like Tywin, First men descendant...) that could never heal, and knew this even before the rebellion began.

I think it's also interesting that the Old Gods don't know 'death'. People who die go back into nature and become 'seeing', but powerless. This is also why I think Bloodraven is not a player of the game, I believe in exchange for his treeish 'power' (seeing) he had to reject all factual power. So the northern not-'kings' don't strive for immortality. But didn't the Targaryens tried to become immortal by becoming dragons? There is a lot of necromancy going on in the south actually. Lot's of UNdeads. And the Others even revive the dead in their hundreds. Also I think it's important that neither Ned nor Mance fear death. In fact, the song Mance sings when Jon meets him is about death, and in ADWD he tells Mel he is more concerned with the manner of his death than with dying. We also see northmen as well as wildlings fight with a reckless bravery. Now Jon has died, too, at least we think that. That's maybe interesting regarding the things about mediating people through spiritual kingship. See also 'Ghost'. Who sent the direwolves, by the way?

This is brilliant!

I have to think a little more on this :) I think there could be a connection to the ice and fire magic and the Undead... Something more profound than the obvious connection (frankens and wights). GRRM have tried to show us that it really is better to be dead-dead than undead, and that we will see this more clearly soon :(

I think maybe there is some secret to immortality in the north that has to be protected from the south? Because the north doesn't strive for power in itself, but the south does? Civilization will sooner or later try to become immortal. Maybe this is what brought doom on Hardhome and Valyria.

And every fairy story that wants to be more than just a medievally dressed up drama needs to deal with human being's wish to become immortal. It's crucial in The Lord of the Rings, Memory, Sorrow and Thorne, Otherland, Harry Potter, even Star Wars.

I'm crackpotting now, but I like that notion.

I like it too :)

Immortality is a common theme in fiction and history both, very good connection!

I started thinking about it when I heard there were alchemists, but GRRM really pushed me off that track with all the other plotting, warring and drama. I have to think about this too...

Much to ponder indeed... :D

[Eyron]

Interesting, I always thought they were just plain grey. But then again GRRM always says he forgets eye colors. In AGOT Renly had green eyes, and in ACOK he had blue eyes ;)

I live in a place where most everyone have grey/blue/green eyes and blue eyes are almost always grey, with shades to it. I have never seen anyone with purely grey eyes, except really old people who are loosing sight, I'm not sure it is even a eye-colour that exists.

Very very few have no grey in them like those sky blue eyes, even fewer have ice blue, mine are more deep ocean dark blue-green with a lot of grey towards the middle :)

The colour shifts wildly depending on the lighting too.

The wights eyes were easy to spot though, they were more white blue with frost on them :)

[fassreiter]

Eira, glad you agree!!!

I am now really on to the singing stuff. I think it might be more important than we had thought. And no, Jon doesn't need to learn how to sing, because, you know, maybe he IS the song of ice and fire!!!! Not like Rhaegar thought. The song of ice and fire is not HIS, as in possessing it, he will BE a song. He will be a protector of some kind, maybe something like tree-Bran, powerful by not having power. Maybe something about Ghost. The whole story is not about the game of thrones, it's about letting go. It's about spirituality as a power opposed to that of ice magic and fire magic. This will be the bitter sweet ending, maybe.

Think about it, the whole culture beyond the Wall, where the children of the forest live, is based on songs. People who die go back into the whole living world (the earth, which has its own songs), but some of them also become 'songs' in a way. Maybe it's no coincidence the king of the free folk is a singer (and not even the first one!), and also sings in the old tongue. Strange 'wild' music, in fact. Songs are among the means by which he gained the free folks allegiance, so a means of unity, he promised those who climbed the Wall to include them in a song, and Tormund also said he would make a song about the fight between the giant king and Donal Noye. Songs are immortality. Songs are of course the normal way how you remember in an illiterate culture, but there is more to it, like in 'The last of the Giants', as you said. When the 'magic' (the earthy kind) is gone (like with the giants), the singing will fade and silence with follow. Those 'who sing the songs of the earth' are like songs themselves: you can't see them, but there is power in them, they are beneath the surface and belong to the earth. Songs and death are two sides of a coin maybe, and reinforce each other. People who rely on songs to be remembered by don't need to fear death, and when they die, the music of the earth becomes a part of them.

While let's look at the songs of the south: The Rains of Castamere, rapist Marillion, the singer who ended up in a bowl of brown: In the south, songs are means of political discourse. Music is often ominous in the south, see the Red Wedding, and singers are part of the court, a part of the game. Music is a weapon there.

And now, you won't believe it, we are back at the Horn of Winter! The Horn of Winter can wake giants from the EARTH. By music, in a way. Maybe the horn kind of resonates of the music of the earth the COTF 'sing'? Like the 'music' in Battlestar Galactica maybe? Like music of the spheres?

And why the fuck is the series called A SONG of Ice and Fire?

:D

I am happily crackpotting my way back to my romantic world view now. But I would love for this series to be a political parable, with the game of thrones as the necessary field humanity lives and loves and dies in, because this is the human way of agency, but that this field is framed by the overwhelming power of Ice and Fire on the one side (promising immortality and absolute power: Others and Dragons) and by the way of letting go on the other side. Political power is necessary, but it's not the way to redemption, so to speak, it will always lead to grey areas and unanswerable questions (like the question of sacrificing one child to save all the rest that was posed to Ned AND Stannis so far). This is why morality is so fucked up in this series: it's the underlying theme of humanity to be fucked up. The story tells of superhuman powers (like Dany displays), human politics (the game) and not-human power (trees, COTF, giants). Jon will be the one to find some balance in there, he will NEVER sit the Iron Throne. The game will continue in the civilized south, and the north will get its songs and wild magic (the earthy kind) back, with the Wall fallen and the old races becoming a part of humanity again below the 'Wall'. Yes?

[Ghost Rider]

I am now really on to the singing stuff. I think it might be more important than we had thought. And no, Jon doesn't need to learn how to sing, because, you know, maybe he IS the song of ice and fire!!!! Not like Rhaegar thought. The song of ice and fire is not HIS, as in possessing it, he will BE a song. He will be a protector of some kind, maybe something like tree-Bran, powerful by not having power. Maybe something about Ghost. The whole story is not about the game of thrones, it's about letting go. It's about spirituality as a power opposed to that of ice magic and fire magic. This will be the bitter sweet ending, maybe.

Great theories of you and Eira! :bowdown: They go refreshingly away from the whole "Daenerys sweeps in with Dragons. Dragons roast the Others. Daenerys becomes queen. Happily ever after with Jon who falls to his knees in awe" :ack: and give the whole series a more spiritual, mythical feel which I immensely enjoy.

To add my 2 cents to that theory: The logical consequence of Jon being the song of Ice and Fire (I like that very much!) would be his death (letting go) in a final sacrifice, thus uniting his song with the Great song of the Earth. There will be great power in this song. The resulting melody would bring harmony to the elements as named in the vow of Meera and Jojen and will bring about the ultimate demise of the Others (and the dragons should they still live). As a consequence the seasons will go back to the seasons we know from Earth. We don't know yet what the Last Hero did 8.000 years ago (my guess is btw that AA, Ptwp and LH are one and the same person), but surely he couldn't overwhelm the forces off the heart of winter alone with a flaming sword?

Songs and death are two sides of a coin maybe, and reinforce each other. People who rely on songs to be remembered by don't need to fear death, and when they die, the music of the earth becomes a part of them.

The song is both: life and death. As life is meaningless without death, the song would lose its harmony. Mance Rayder's song didn't tell of death only, it told of death after a rich life. He would be prepared for death because he tasted the Dornishman's wife, that is everything that's good and sweet in life. The balance of ice and fire might mean the balance of life and death in that sense. It gives the "and filled the air with sweetness" part of the Undying (?) prophecy a whole new meaning. I love that Mance Rayder is a singer, btw. Does it have any meaning that Rhaegar was a singer too?

And now, you won't believe it, we are back at the Horn of Winter! The Horn of Winter can wake giants from the EARTH. By music, in a way. Maybe the horn kind of resonates of the music of the earth the COTF 'sing'?

I bet that's the point where Bran ties in. It just can't be his whole point to sit in a cave and treepeep into past and present. He must be with the cotf for a reason. And we know that the cotf have a song so powerful it can break continents loose, that is: they have power over Earth herself. Maybe the giants are not literal, but the gigantic powers of Earth? Maybe the Horn of Winter isn't literal either? Do we know anything about Joramun?

I am happily crackpotting my way back to my romantic world view now. But I would love for this series to be a political parable, with the game of thrones as the necessary field humanity lives and loves and dies in, because this is the human way of agency, but that this field is framed by the overwhelming power of Ice and Fire on the one side (promising immortality and absolute power: Others and Dragons) and by the way of letting go on the other side. Political power is necessary, but it's not the way to redemption, so to speak, it will always lead to grey areas and unanswerable questions (like the question of sacrificing one child to save all the rest that was posed to Ned AND Stannis so far). This is why morality is so fucked up in this series: it's the underlying theme of humanity to be fucked up. The story tells of superhuman powers (like Dany displays), human politics (the game) and not-human power (trees, COTF, giants). Jon will be the one to find some balance in there, he will NEVER sit the Iron Throne.

That's just allaround awesome! On the one hand we have the somewhat disconnected feeling of petty human squabbles, woven into a greater theme of the conditio humana. The human world is an area of grey with different interests pitted against each other. But all human kind is bound to live and die, to their own bodies, to Earth. While our spirits may soar high and our aims good, we are still subject to bodily needs and thereby compromise good intentions. Can it be accidentally that Jon is the least touched of all the political power struggles and also one of the least grey characters?

The game will continue in the civilized south, and the north will get its songs and wild magic (the earthy kind) back, with the Wall fallen and the old races becoming a part of humanity again below the 'Wall'.

I expect some kind of peace in the South in the direct aftermath: the sudden awareness of the existential threat to humanity will make these struggles seem unimportant, just like it is in our own life when existential changes (like death) put things into perspective. The song will be heard, it will be compelling and all-encompassing and after the last notes are faded away, the cotf will be gone from this world, just like the other old races. (and Jon) They will be remembered only in songs. (The North remembers!)

Also I think it's important that neither Ned nor Mance fear death. In fact, the song Mance sings when Jon meets him is about death. (...) We also see northmen as well as wildlings fight with a reckless bravery. Now Jon has died, too, at least we think that.

Interesting observation about the different perception of death in North and South. This is probably shown exemplary in the POVs of Cat and Sansa. Both fear death, Sansa for herself as well as others, Cat more for others as she has lost too much already to care much. (Ironically she's the one tricking death!) To be fair: The Southern knights like Jaime or Beric Dondarrion seem to be just as reckless as the Northern warriors. Maybe it's not so much about fear (Rattleshirt feared too), but about the willingness to sacrifice their own (!) life for a greater cause. We have seen sacrifice of life beyond the Wall several times, in the cases of Squire Dalbridge, Quorin Halfhand, Donal Noye. At least the first two knew with a certainty that they were about to die. Jon has already shown that he is willing to give up his life when he rejected Stannis offer of Winterfell. So I also don't think it's a stretch to assume that we will see him make that sacrifice. I don't count the assassination attempt here because he wasn't a willing party to that. I don't think he's dead, so imho there won't be any kind of UnJon. I had proposed quite some time ago that his "death" is comparable to Bran's fall. Jon must open his third eye. Only in this sense will he be reborn.

[Ghost Rider]

To add in support of the theory: When Bloodraven aka the Mormont's crow calls out to Jon: king, king Jon Snow or something like that, I heretofore assumed it would be because of Jon's Targaryen heritage and because it would be the legit heir to the Iron Throne. But would Bloodraven really care? Sure, he's a Targ himself, but he is involved in other kinds of war now. In light of this mythical theory (you'd have to find a handy name for it!), could his kingdom "not be of this world"? That explanation would certainly tie in with Melisanders: Show me your king, your instrument.

Of course the whole theory would bring the Messiah-element into the story, but that's not really surprising when we hear of the "prince that was promised", "Azor Ahai" or "The Last Hero" who are all saviours bringing deliverance to this world. I know there are a lot of readers who don't enjoy these mythical elements, but they are undeniably there.

What's more: in christianity the Messiah is perceived as "word made flesh" which for me resonates beautifully with "song made flesh". (John 14a "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.")

[Eyron]

Before I give a proper response to the excellent posts above I have to share something I just thought of.

So, Sansa would have been right all along :D

Life is a song of heroes and maidens fair!

Now I will be serious, the ones in the songs live forever, remembered. They leave a legacy to the moral compass of society and knowledge about life is passed on. The north remembers, and the memories are embedded in the songs.

Brave Danny Flint, The Last of the Giants, heh even the Bear and the Maiden Fair is knowledge passed on. About the Bear and the maid, she expected a knight but got a bear, and was happy about it in the end. Men and beasts are not suppose to fight perhaps?

Jon remembered about Danny Flint and that is why he didn't let the girls become NW hostages, thanks to the memory passed on in a song.

I will get back to the songs in my next post... I think there is something deeper than just the memories in the songs too, like you have proposed.

From Fassreiter:

I think maybe there is some secret to immortality in the north that has to be protected from the south? Because the north doesn't strive for power in itself, but the south does? Civilization will sooner or later try to become immortal. Maybe this is what brought doom on Hardhome and Valyria.

The truth is in the bones, flesh decays and the bones endure... (Damphair, not a quote, I don't have the book at the moment)

The bones are conserved. The Stark bones are in the crypts. The CotF save the sculls in the trees, the Ironmen send them to the sea, the Riverlords to the river. The crannogmen? (into the bog I suppose)

The Targaryens burn their dead, they are consumed.

Neds bones are a big deal, as was Lyannas and all the earlier Starks, there is a purpose to them being preserved in the crypts. And they put an iron sword on them, to protect them from becoming ghosts? I proposed once that it was to prevent them from being a wandering spirit for ever, do you have any ideas?

The bones will come into play I think.

Could it be that Jon will be preserved in under the wall so that his bones later can be sent back to Winterfell, a last act of respect from his brothers? They do not need to fear that he will become a wight since they have two other bodies down there. I always thought that those two dead men must have some meaning, and they did, they showed the NW the way to keep Jon.

About the reason for the Others to appear and the dragons coming back.

I also just realised that Aegon the Conqueror and his descendants took the faith of the Seven before conquering Westeros, that endured in most parts untill Aerys. This faith is in many aspects alike to the northern faith, a very sound religion, a moral compass to the people, and as I have said before I think the Seven are a legend of heroes, the memories of real people who were important to their culture and worthy of remembrance.

But Aerys... he took to burning things instead, he worshipped fire! And the game began.

[ARYa_Nym]

To add in support of the theory: When Bloodraven aka the Mormont's crow calls out to Jon: king, king Jon Snow or something like that, I heretofore assumed it would be because of Jon's Targaryen heritage and because it would be the legit heir to the Iron Throne. But would Bloodraven really care? Sure, he's a Targ himself, but he is involved in other kinds of war now. In light of this mythical theory (you'd have to find a handy name for it!), could his kingdom "not be of this world"? That explanation would certainly tie in with Melisanders: Show me your king, your instrument.

I think BR still cares. He called Jon king after Jeor Mormont said that Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the dragonkings.

BR might have been warging Rhaenys' cat Balerion to spy on KL. That cat has been nasty to the Lannisters.

Oh, and my theory is that he is dead but he will be reborn through the magic in the wall.

Or the last fire that Dany must light, (to love) revives him since I'm not sure what that means yet.

[Theo1]

I like the 'some secret of immortality in the north' theory. Is this is old knowledge that many in the north have forgotten? It may be connected to the weir woods, consciousness hooked up into a larger natural force (sounds little too much like The Force). there are CofF hooked up into weir woods and they just seem to linger.

I agree there is something about the bones, but Ned clearly forgot or was never tuned into this truth as have kind of dropped the ball and left the bones of some of his most trusted and loyal folks down in the south at the tower of joy.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Interesting discussion guys. I am going to add my two cents here. Basically, the north, beyond the Wall is the antithesis of what the Citadel wants. They don't want a civilization whereas the Citadel is trying to build exactly that sort of world.

I am not sure I quite agree that Jon is the actual song of Ice and Fire. But I might be better able to comment on this later after I am done rereading ADWD.

[4rcane]

A horn to bring down the wall? Who and why would anyone create it

[Ghost Rider]

I think BR still cares. He called Jon king after Jeor Mormont said that Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the dragonkings.

BR might have been warging Rhaenys' cat Balerion to spy on KL. That cat has been nasty to the Lannisters.

Hehe, possible. I might have been carried away a bit. I just love the more romantic, tragic, mythical symphony of death and life. That's why I'd like to give the more prophane explanations a drift toward mind over matter. Funny thing about Bloodraven warging the cat. Shouldn't he have chosen a bigger and more dangerous animal though? :D

Or the last fire that Dany must light, (to love) revives him since I'm not sure what that means yet.

Oh, I hope not! That would mean, it'll be only at "the end of all things", which seems very late in the game. I also like to see Daenerys as a possible antagonist, because I think that would be more interesting then "exiled princess returns to her homeland and kicks ass". As for the interpretations of the Undying prophecy - I think all possibilities are open. I admit there may appear some Jon-Dany love, at some point. :ack:

The more interesting topic of songs:

Songs have always played a big role in fantasy, even in the deeper, mythical sense. Like when the great song of the Ainur leads to the creation of Arda. It was a song of great beauty and harmony, until Melkor added dissonance.

---spoiler for wind on fire trilogy---

As for the use of song in a grand finale, I liked the "wind on fire trilogy". I don't remember it exactly, it's years since I read it. There are folks called singers, who join the people of the Manth, lead by the twins Bowman and Kestrel. Bowman is trained to become a windsinger and he expects to have to sacrifice his life for his people. In the end however, it is revealed that it's his twin sister who will lay down her life in a final song adding her voice to the singers' that rescues the people of the Manth from the Morah. Kestrel and the singers perish in the song.

---end spoilers---

The title "song of ice and fire" resonates of a mythical tale, not something completely prosaic. There is magic after all. That's why I expect the cotf and their song to have a big entrance in the story. So far we have only heard of their powers.

"They say the nightingale pierces his bosom with a thorn when he sings his love song. So do we all. How else should we sing?" (Khalil Gibran)

Random thought about the bones: could they be connected to "giants from the earth"? Are they awoken by some kind of song?

[Eyron]

What should we call this theory?

"Theory of the Great Song" mayhaps? or "42" (it's the answer to everything)

I am now really on to the singing stuff. I think it might be more important than we had thought. And no, Jon doesn't need to learn how to sing, because, you know, maybe he IS the song of ice and fire!!!! Not like Rhaegar thought. The song of ice and fire is not HIS, as in possessing it, he will BE a song. He will be a protector of some kind, maybe something like tree-Bran, powerful by not having power. Maybe something about Ghost. The whole story is not about the game of thrones, it's about letting go. It's about spirituality as a power opposed to that of ice magic and fire magic. This will be the bitter sweet ending, maybe.

His is the song of ice and fire so he already has a real song actually (if we subscribe to R+L=J and R being confused in Danys vision), Rhaegar had already written it but nobody knows the song. Maybe Howland Reed does though.

I really think the story is about life's transcience, about how we choose to live our lives and how we are remembered. If we choose to live with honour and fulfill our potential we need not fear death, we live on forever. That is why it is important to sing the songs, tell the stories and not forget our heroes. A culture that does not forget also instills an incitament to be the best you can for your people. But the unsung heroes are the most heroic, they die in silence, like the smallfolk in Westeros.

But then there is also the mysterious aspects of life and death and magic in aSoIaF, but those are not the essential ingredients, just spice.

And now, you won't believe it, we are back at the Horn of Winter! The Horn of Winter can wake giants from the EARTH. By music, in a way. Maybe the horn kind of resonates of the music of the earth the COTF 'sing'? Like the 'music' in Battlestar Galactica maybe? Like music of the spheres?

Aye, I think it gives life, the greenseers used to "see" the deep places of the earth, and they sing for it whatever dwells there, the being that gives life. Earth itself I think. When the singing stops, so does life. Ah BSG I miss that show... Another weird thing I do, if I hear a sound like "ping ping ping" I get suspicious... Are you a cylon?

I really want to see things wake up... giant things

I am happily crackpotting my way back to my romantic world view now. But I would love for this series to be a political parable, with the game of thrones as the necessary field humanity lives and loves and dies in, because this is the human way of agency, but that this field is framed by the overwhelming power of Ice and Fire on the one side (promising immortality and absolute power: Others and Dragons) and by the way of letting go on the other side. Political power is necessary, but it's not the way to redemption, so to speak, it will always lead to grey areas and unanswerable questions (like the question of sacrificing one child to save all the rest that was posed to Ned AND Stannis so far). This is why morality is so fucked up in this series: it's the underlying theme of humanity to be fucked up. The story tells of superhuman powers (like Dany displays), human politics (the game) and not-human power (trees, COTF, giants). Jon will be the one to find some balance in there, he will NEVER sit the Iron Throne. The game will continue in the civilized south, and the north will get its songs and wild magic (the earthy kind) back, with the Wall fallen and the old races becoming a part of humanity again below the 'Wall'. Yes?

This is so right, exept the Game will come to a gruesome end when winter descends on Westeros. Humans will have a place in the world but only if they respect the elements and don't try to ascend to immortality. Like you say, they must learn to let go of power and life.

To add my 2 cents to that theory: The logical consequence of Jon being the song of Ice and Fire (I like that very much!) would be his death (letting go) in a final sacrifice, thus uniting his song with the Great song of the Earth. There will be great power in this song. The resulting melody would bring harmony to the elements as named in the vow of Meera and Jojen and will bring about the ultimate demise of the Others (and the dragons should they still live). As a consequence the seasons will go back to the seasons we know from Earth. We don't know yet what the Last Hero did 8.000 years ago (my guess is btw that AA, Ptwp and LH are one and the same person), but surely he couldn't overwhelm the forces off the heart of winter alone with a flaming sword?

Totally agree that Jon has to "let go", he will be (or do) a sacrifice of sorts, for Ice and Fire. If he has to let go of all wordly hopes and say, destroy the monarchic system or if he has to let go of life (the ultimate sacrifice) is the question. He has already given his life in a sense when he joined the NW, and as you said when he declined Stannis' offer of Winterfell and I am not sure he died when he was stabbed. If he died he will live a second life, in Ghost (at least first, what a suitable name for his wolf!) maybe he will re-take his body or take a new one, being offered to share one by someone loyal perhaps?

I too believe he will be able to open his third eye from this. Bran had his fall, Jojen his sickness and that is why they could reach their abilities.

I have surrendered to the idea that the NW are Lightbringer, I think swords poping up here and there are red herrings. It is all so blatant and I think GRRM are misleading us. Jons dream about him and the red sword is still valid since he is/was/will be again the LC, wielding the Lightbringer, the NW.

The song is both: life and death. As life is meaningless without death, the song would lose its harmony. Mance Rayder's song didn't tell of death only, it told of death after a rich life. He would be prepared for death because he tasted the Dornishman's wife, that is everything that's good and sweet in life. The balance of ice and fire might mean the balance of life and death in that sense. It gives the "and filled the air with sweetness" part of the Undying (?) prophecy a whole new meaning. I love that Mance Rayder is a singer, btw. Does it have any meaning that Rhaegar was a singer too?

I think it is relevant that Rhaegar was a singer, he knew the meaning of songs and immortality through remembrance. Maybe he knew more than that to but we will not learn if he did I think.

I bet that's the point where Bran ties in. It just can't be his whole point to sit in a cave and treepeep into past and present. He must be with the cotf for a reason. And we know that the cotf have a song so powerful it can break continents loose, that is: they have power over Earth herself. Maybe the giants are not literal, but the gigantic powers of Earth? Maybe the Horn of Winter isn't literal either? Do we know anything about Joramun?

I also believe the giants are the giant powers of earth, I fear big catastrophies are afoot, but winter is one of those elements and will do terrible damage so maybe that will be enough. I think Bran will learn to see into the deep of the earth too, and he will not be a boy anymore.

I expect some kind of peace in the South in the direct aftermath: the sudden awareness of the existential threat to humanity will make these struggles seem unimportant, just like it is in our own life when existential changes (like death) put things into perspective. The song will be heard, it will be compelling and all-encompassing and after the last notes are faded away, the cotf will be gone from this world, just like the other old races. (and Jon) They will be remembered only in songs. (The North remembers!)

:crying:

I hope the CotF and the giants will live on, or the singing will fade... Who then will sing for the earth?