The northmen inside and outside Winterfell. Conspiracy? The GNC - The Grand Northern Conspiracy

[MtnLion]

I do think that the younger Mormont is trying to tell Jon something with her letter. He just did not get that there is a King in the North.

There is a king in the north, and his name is Stark (not Snow). I like it, Lyanna Mormont, FTW.

[Ragnorak]

According to the wiki Rowan is a wildling spearwife, one of the 6 that accompany Abel to Winterfell. Does anyone else find that above quote a little to ... much/strong/loyal coming from a Wildling about Eddard?

In Jon's chapters you run across a lot of Stark respect/loyalty among the Wildlings. The Bael the Bard tale is basically a parable about how the Starks and Free folk are the same people. When Jon meets the Wildlings at the weirwood grove they spit on the word of a crow, but when he says he's the son of Ned Stark that seems to end the mistrust. Jon did a lot at the Wall for the Wildlings and for Mance. Even when they tried to burn "Mance" (Rattleshirt) Jon risked the wrath of Stannis and had him mercifully shot with arrows so he wouldn't die burning. The intensity of that loyalty is still a curious stand out, but it isn't without a background.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Perhaps this was mentioned earlier but I could not find it. Mance was at winterfell for the feast for King Robert and bragged to Jon that he "took the measure of the stark children and their wolf pups". Given that Mance is observant it is hard to believe that he didnt recognize 'arya' as a fake immediately. So why did he as Abel go through with the plans to steal the fake Arya? Was he part of some conspiracy or did he have his own purposes?

While I sure that Mance watched Jon and the other boys very much, I think..

1. The girls were not what he was primariry looking at, he was trying to learn of the men he may have to meet in the field one day.

2. At that time Sansa is the one everyone looked at, and she is the one that enjoyed the spot light, so she be more remembered. (and sang to, Arya did not like that kind of thing)

3. It was a couple years ago, and he wasn't starring at them, that would have brought unwanted suspection to himself.

4. Jenye Poole was there with them, it is likely that he remember her as much as Arya. And even Theon thinks that she does kind of looks like Arya, she just older, and the Eyes are wrong.

[kissdbyfire]

Ah yes Robett Glover, this may be the elusive link I mentioned between Manderly and the others. If we assume that Lady Maege has been in contact with her kin why not Galbart with his, who is conveniently with Manderly?

Yes, that's how I see the connect between the two conspiracies happening too. :)

[Jayce]

The intensity of that loyalty is still a curious stand out, but it isn't without a background.

Indeed.

[Mulled Wino]

Your right, sailing from Seagard would be a hella long way - I mistakenly had it on the east coast of the continent. The point still stands though that a ship could take messages from Robb from the riverlands to the north if he really needed to send a copy of the will that way. I mostly just don't like the common assertion that Robb sent Mormont and Glover to Reed to provide him with a copy of the will. He didn't, it's just that in the event the knowledge they happened to have from witnessing the will proved more relevant than their original orders. That's me being pedantic I guess.

Tell the truth, I'd kind of forgotten the topic is conspiracies around Winterfell. I was more theorising on general northern plotting. Winterfell when we saw it through Theon's eyes was pretty well closed up, I don't really buy people sneaking over the walls in the middle of the frozen winter. However, Winterfell is only a tiny part of the north. I think if some of the prisoners in the south were rescued that would free the northmen in all the rest of the north - and the people reluctantly gathered to Roose's banner would learn of the rescue when those people started acting.

The best way to get those hostages from the Freys is to take the Freys in Winterfell hostage.

[Buried Treasure]

Taking hostages in Winterfell is problematic given the numbers in the castle. It would turn into a bloody and open battle and I'm not sure enough of how many men each faction has to say who would win. But if we accept for the moment that the Freys at Winterfell were taken hostage...

There are 2 sets of prisoners in the South. The Freys are currently holding the most, and they might be interested in ransoming their own kin. However the cumulative worth of their prisoners (lords and heirs) is far great then the worth of the Freys (spare brothers and cousins) - so an exchange would probably result in the Freys still having leftover northern prisoners at the end.

Then there is the smaller number of prisoners taken near Duskendale. I think Tarly currently holds them (?) and neither the Lannisters nor Tyrells care enough about their Bolton or Frey allies to offer an exchange.

[kissdbyfire]

Taking hostages in Winterfell is problematic given the numbers in the castle. It would turn into a bloody and open battle and I'm not sure enough of how many men each faction has to say who would win. But if we accept for the moment that the Freys at Winterfell were taken hostage...

I don't think 'would be problematic' will matter, I think that by the beginning of TWoW that ship will have sailed.

[Mulled Wino]

Any betrayal to someone who's currently helping them restore House Stark would be just nasty and beneath the Northmen, imo.

Yes. There are definitely Northmen backing Stannis because he has earned respect from Northmen.

[Mulled Wino]

Taking hostages in Winterfell is problematic given the numbers in the castle. It would turn into a bloody and open battle and I'm not sure enough of how many men each faction has to say who would win. But if we accept for the moment that the Freys at Winterfell were taken hostage...

There are 2 sets of prisoners in the South. The Freys are currently holding the most, and they might be interested in ransoming their own king. However the cumulative worth of their prisoners (lords and heirs) is far great then the worth of the Freys (spare brothers and cousins) - so an exchange would probably result in the Freys still having leftover northern prisoners at the end.

Then there is the smaller number of prisoners taken near Duskendale. I think Tarly currently holds them (?) and neither the Lannisters nor Tyrells care enough about their Bolton or Frey allies to offer an exchange.

Not really if they Freys are sent out of Winterfell, which is when they'll be ambused by 3 forces at Stannis camp (my theory). I think Hosteen could be worth a Greatjohn. Maybe.

Im not sure whom is held prisoner where, but I know that Tarly and co lost thier most valuable prisoner (arguably) in Robett.

Another possibility for your theory is that Jamie has commended the Freys to turn over their prisoners. That would be the time for Galbert and Maege to strike.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't think 'would be problematic' will matter, I think that by the beginning of TWoW that ship will have sailed.

Not to mention that it'd be even harder to resuce captives from dungeons in the Twins.

[kissdbyfire]

Not to mention that it'd be even harder to resuce captives from dungeons in the Twins.

In theory there's no northerner there anymore. No?

[Mulled Wino]

In theory there's no northerner there anymore. No?

There still are. Jamie ordered them to be taken to KL, but it hasnt happened yet. And Jamie's missingso there's no oneti enforce his ordercuz no one knows about it. WF isnt goingto give his hostage up until he has to.

[kissdbyfire]

But do we know for a fact that it hasn't happened? Is it said? I can't remember... I thought it was at least possible for them to be en route somewhere.

[Mulled Wino]

But do we know for a fact that it hasn't happened? Is it said? I can't remember... I thought it was at least possible for them to be en route somewhere.

We dont know anything for sure. The Frey still had to go back to the Twins and tell WF. Id be shocked if WF already sent his hostages away. It would be very un-Walder Freyish.

[kissdbyfire]

We dont know anything for sure. The Frey still had to go back to the Twins and tell WF. Id be shocked if WF already sent his hostages away. It would be very un-Walder Freyish.

I'm not so sure... Very un-Walder Freyish would be for him not to be out for his own interests, soI don't think he'd go against the Lannisters. Also, for all he knows the northerners have been defeated or are now sworn to his son-in-law Roose.

[Ragnorak]

I'm not so sure... Very un-Walder Freyish would be for him not to be out for his own interests, soI don't think he'd go against the Lannisters. Also, for all he knows the northerners have been defeated or are now sworn to his son-in-law Roose.

Nevermind. Mulled Wino is correct. Jaime gave the hostage orders to Edwyn Frey, not Ryman.

[Mulled Wino]

I'm not so sure... Very un-Walder Freyish would be for him not to be out for his own interests, soI don't think he'd go against the Lannisters. Also, for all he knows the northerners have been defeated or are now sworn to his son-in-law Roose.

Stalling is not the same as defying.

[Mulled Wino]

I think the big problem is that the Frey Jaime gave those orders to was killed on his way back to the Twins. Tom the singer was in the tent and seems to be relaying info back to the BwB. It is still possible that word somehow got back to the Twins but so far all the overt info we have says the order to release the hostages died with the Frey. Tom is in Riverrun so we may see Genna Lannister and her husband taken hostage to act a balance for the Red Wedding hostages but I can't see that being part of the Northern Conspiracy. I think they need to be planning to take those Freys hostage if they want leverage to protect the Northmen held captive. Even with the Blackfish as a variable I think Riverrun just offers potential plot fortune should they fail.

I thought tom was in the castle, not the tent where jamie told frey about the hostages.

Tom was around for the blackfish escape and the plans Jamie made for Edmure i thought.

[kissdbyfire]

That's what I was talking about, for all we know, Jaime's orders have reached the Twins. And Tom was with Ryman Frey. He was inside Ryman's tent when Jaime got there. But as Ragnorak said, the orders to send the prisoners to KL are given to Edwyn Frey, at the same he tells Ryman to get the hell out of there.

AFfC, chapter 39, Jaime VI:

Ryman Frey’s great rectangular pavilion was the largest in the camp; its grey canvas walls were made of sewn squares to resemble stonework, and its two peaks evoked the Twins. Far from being indisposed, Ser Ryman was enjoying some entertainment. The sound of a woman’s drunken laughter drifted from within the tent, mingled with the strains of a woodharp and a singer’s voice. I will deal with you later, ser, Jaime thought. Walder Rivers stood before his own modest tent, talking with two men-at-arms. His shield bore the arms of House Frey with the colors reversed, and a red bend sinister across the towers. When the bastard saw Jaime, he frowned. There’s a cold suspicious look if ever I saw one. That one is more dangerous than any of his trueborn brothers.

The gallows had been raised ten feet off the ground. Two spearmen were posted at the foot of the steps. “You can’t go up without Ser Ryman’s leave,” one told Jaime.

“This says I can.” Jaime tapped his sword hilt with a finger. “The question is, will I need to step over your corpse?”

The spearmen moved aside.

Atop the gallows, the Lord of Riverrun stood staring at the trap beneath him. His feet were black and caked with mud, his legs bare. Edmure wore a soiled silken tunic striped in Tully red and blue, and a noose of hempen rope. At the sound of Jaime’s footsteps, he raised his head and licked his dry, cracked lips.“Kingslayer?” The sight of Ser Ilyn widened his eyes. “Better a sword than a rope. Do it, Payne.”

“Ser Ilyn,” said Jaime. “You heard Lord Tully. Do it.”

The silent knight gripped his greatsword with both hands. Long and heavy it was, sharp as common steel could be. Edmure’s cracked lips moved soundlessly. As Ser Ilyn drew the blade back, he closed his eyes. The stroke had all Payne’s weight behind it.

“No! Stop. NO!” Edwyn Frey came panting into view. “My father comes. Fast as he can. Jaime, you must . . .”

“My lord would suit me better, Frey,” said Jaime. “And you would do well to omit must from any speech directed at me.”

Ser Ryman came stomping up the gallows steps in company with a straw-haired slattern as drunk as he was. Her gown laced up the front, but someone had undone the laces to the navel, so her breasts were spilling out. They were large and heavy, with big brown nipples. On her head a circlet of hammered bronze sat askew, graven with runes and ringed with small black swords. When she saw Jaime, she laughed. “Who in seven hells is this one?”

“The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard,” Jaime returned with cold courtesy. “I might ask the same of you, my lady.”

“Lady? I’m no lady. I’m the queen.”

“My sister will be surprised to hear that.”

“Lord Ryman crowned me his very self.” She gave a shake of her ample hips. “I’m the queen o’ whores.”

No, Jaime thought, my sweet sister holds that title too.

Ser Ryman found his tongue. “Shut your mouth, slut, Lord Jaime doesn’t want to hear some harlot’s nonsense.” This Frey was a thickset man with a broad face, small eyes, and a soft fleshy set of chins. His breath stank of wine and onions.

“Making queens, Ser Ryman?” Jaime asked softly. “Stupid. As stupid as this business with Lord Edmure.”

“I gave the Blackfish warning. I told him Edmure would die unless the castle yielded. I had this gallows built, to show them that Ser Ryman Frey does not make idle threats. At Seagard my son Walder did the same with Patrek Mallister and Lord Jason bent the knee, but . . . the Blackfish is a cold man. He refused us, so . . .”

“. . . you hanged Lord Edmure?”

The man reddened. “My lord grandfather . . . if we hang the man we have no hostage, ser. Have you considered that?”

“Only a fool makes threats he’s not prepared to carry out. If I were to threaten to hit you unless you shut your mouth, and you presumed to speak, what do you think I’d do?”

“Ser, you do not unders—”

Jaime hit him. It was a backhand blow delivered with his golden hand, but the force of it sent Ser Ryman stumbling backward into the arms of his whore. “You have a fat head, Ser Ryman, and a thick neck as well. Ser Ilyn, how many strokes would it take you to cut through that neck?”

Ser Ilyn laid a single finger against his nose.

Jaime laughed. “An empty boast. I say three.”

Ryman Frey went to his knees. “I have done nothing . . .”

“. . . but drink and whore. I know.”

“I am heir to the Crossing. You can’t . . .”

“I warned you about talking.” Jaime watched the man turn white. A sot, a fool, and a craven. Lord Walder had best outlive this one, or the Freys are done. “You are dismissed, ser.”

“Dismissed?”

“You heard me. Go away.”

“But . . . where should I go?”

“To hell or home, as you prefer. See that you are not in camp when the sun comes up. You may take your queen of whores, but not that crown of hers.” Jaime turned from Ser Ryman to his son. “Edwyn, I am giving you your father’s command. Try not to be so stupid as your sire.”

“That ought not pose much difficulty, my lord.”

“Send word to Lord Walder. The crown requires all his prisoners.” Jaime waved his golden hand. “Ser Lyle, bring him.”

Edmure Tully had collapsed facedown on the scaffold when Ser Ilyn’s blade sheared the rope in two. A foot of hemp still dangled from the noose about his neck. Strongboar grabbed the end of it and pulled him to his feet. “A fish on a leash,” he said, chortling. “There’s a sight I never saw before.”

The Freys stepped aside to let them pass. A crowd had gathered below the scaffold, including a dozen camp followers in various states of disarray. Jaime noticed one man holding a woodharp. “You. Singer. Come with me.”