Sensitive Topic Right Here!

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

That I STRONGLY disagree, but debating it won't change any of our minds.

Well and that once more relates to one's upbringing, morality and religion. Different religious practices DO come into play. Today we know there is more than one religion and the entire world does NOT subscribe to ONE belief system.

I am not *not* stating in any way shape or form that one is better than the other....just stating that there is a "moral and cultural" difference

The point being...in some parts of the world it is actually socially and morally acceptable for a 12 yr old girl to be married off to a 40 yr old man in an arranged marriage. Sometimes they are even 1st cousins. She is expected to sleep with him. This still occurs today. To "Western" society, its immoral and evil but to their society, its normal and expected. So yes....morality IS subjective

[Winter's Knight]

That I STRONGLY disagree, but debating it won't change any of our minds.

It may-I've had my mind changed about several elements of Martin's world by reading debates in this forum

So, like I said earlier about Dany, she absolutly consented to having sex with Drogo that first night. However, it's possible that she wasn't aware of the customs of the Dothraki. ("they take their women like a dog takes a bitch") But once she learned that, she took charge of her own situation, and showed him how SHE wanted to have sex.

But she didn't consent to the marriage-she explicity tells Viserys so:

'Dany looked at Khal Drogo. His face was hard and cruel, his eyes as cold and dark as onyx. Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon, but he did not frighten her the way this man frightened her. "I don't want to be his queen," she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. "Please, please, Viserys, I don't want to, I want to go home."'

[Winter's Knight]

Well and that once more relates to one's upbringing, morality and religion. Christianity vs Islam, for example. American culture vs Iranian culture.

I am not *not* stating in any way shape or form that one is better than the other....just stating that there is a "moral and cultural" difference

The point being...in some parts (not specifically Iran, FYI) it is actually socially and morally acceptable for a 12 yr old girl to be married off to a 40 yr old man in an arranged marriage. Sometimes they are even 1st cousins. She is expected to sleep with him. This still occurs today. To "Western" society, its immoral and evil but to their society, its normal and expected. So yes....morality IS subjective

Up until the 1900's it was normal and expected for a Hindu woman to burn on her husband's funeral pyre.

It was normal and expected-does it make it any less wrong?

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Wrong to whom??? to you or to them?

[Winter's Knight]

Wrong to whom??? to you or to them?

There were people even then who considered it "wrong" and they in turn were considered wrong by their society.

[Maroucia]

That I STRONGLY disagree, but debating it won't change any of our minds.

That I STRONGLY disagree, but debating it won't change any of our minds.

Of course, that does not make EVERYTHING acceptable (far from that) it just helps not jugging so much and try to understand others. It’s not like I’m going to excuse what other people do because of that, but logic is a human invention… Animals don’t care about morality, they eat one another and kill there children if needed.

If you look at how many different societies there is on earth and how they don’t work the same, that some things are bad some places and good in others, you just tell yourself that it’s all in the perspective.

But you have the right to see through your eyes and analyse from your perspective. I only think that, to really enjoy the ride of a great story like ASOIAF, you have to let yourself go!

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The issue I think is that in a society where people are accepted to be chattel then they no longer have the power to consent to various things, including sex. And the moral outrage should be reserved for the system that allows people to become property rather than the individuals who operate in accordance with that system.

[Maroucia]

Up until the 1900's it was normal and expected for a Hindu woman to burn on her husband's funeral pyre.

It was normal and expected-does it make it any less wrong?

Up until the 1900's it was normal and expected for a Hindu woman to burn on her husband's funeral pyre.

It was normal and expected-does it make it any less wrong?

I would never say it was a good thing to burn wifes at the same time then their husbands (oh god no), but european mantis eat there mate after they have done their thing… We are living creatures, same as them… with no logic or pity.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

in Westeros society....women aka brides are "chattel"

and certain "duties" are expected of them

is it "right"??? meh....I wouldn't like it

but seriously.....I had a high school friend....and then later....a boyfriend who each went off to marry literal strangers in "arranged" marriages.

To them, it was not immoral or horrid. It was part of their custom

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I would never say it was a good thing to burn wifes at the same time that their husbands (oh god no), but european mantis eat there mate after they have done their thing… We are living creatures, same as them… with no logic or pity.

Unlike mantis we are capable of both logic and pity and a lot more. Humans are after all not just animals or living creatures but smart animals.

[Maroucia]

Unlike mantis we are capable of both logic and pity and a lot more. Humans are after all not just animals or living creatures but smart animals.

Unlike mantis we are capable of both logic and pity and a lot more. Humans are after all not just animals or living creatures but smart animals.

Of course, and I’m happy we do, but I think it just helps not thinking that the morality is written in the sky or something…

[Lady Katherine]

hmmm....tough one.

As I read, I guess I think of things from the perspective of the time being written about. In medieval societies, it was expected of the wife to submit to her husband. Does that mean that the wife was always okay with it? Absolutely not. But, I guess, sadly, the woman "knew her place." I admire GRRM for addressing women and their anger over this (ie. Cersei and Dany) even if he was writing about a time period where women didn't have the right to be angry.

I guess you just have to think of things in the perspective of the time frame they are written, otherwise you will dwell on the morality of EVERYTHING. Think of some other things that are completely out of the question these days, examples: 12 and 13 year old girls marrying adult men, being beheaded for going AWOL, etc...

[Winter's Knight]

LOL ya sure about that??? *grin*

You must not get out much or live in a reeeeeeeeaaaaally good neighborhood

Most people are capable of using logic-they choose not to.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Please, keep to topic rather than baiting each other over whether or not we're exactly like insects. It's insulting and is more likely to result in flames, which will get this thread shut down. Thank you. [/mod]

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Unlike mantis we are capable of both logic and pity and a lot more. Humans are after all not just animals or living creatures but smart animals.

I'm not sure that mantises aren't also capable of logic. When I female mantis removes the head or her mate he delivers a higher amount of sperm and the males do try to avoid being consumed. We've decided that as a society sex is only acceptable under certain circumstances but I'm not sure we can expect other societies to share our value system. For example given modern contraception does the type of incest Jamie and Cersei engage require moral outrage?

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Morality is what we make of it.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

[mod] Please, keep to topic rather than baiting each other over whether or not we're exactly like insects. It's insulting and is more likely to result in flames, which will get this thread shut down. Thank you. [/mod]

I thought that was the topic. We are animals after all and our morality is not self evident but part of a social contract we've decided to hold one another to. I think in order to understand the nature of that contract we have to trace its origins back to primordial soup from which we arose. I think that's really what Martin is writing about here. That's why the forces in opposition to one another are not comprised of Orcs and humans.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

SOME states within the US allow 1st cousin marriage.....yet it is perfectly acceptable in MANY cultures outside of the US

(example of morality)

SOME religions state sex outside of marriage is immoral.......

SOME say contraception is immoral

SOME say divorce is immoral...

SOME say gay love is immoral

and the list goes on...

so, once more, what exactly defines morality?

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I'm not sure that mantises aren't also capable of logic. When I female mantis removes the head or her mate he delivers a higher amount of sperm and the males do try to avoid being consumed. We've decided that as a society sex is only acceptable under certain circumstances but I'm not sure we can expect other societies to share our value system. For example given modern contraception does the type of incest Jamie and Cersei engage require moral outrage?

Insects can't think about the ramifications of their choices in the way humans do or possess such morality. Their decisions are more based on instinct. Instincts such as instincts of self preservation. Human morality is much more developed. For example we might like sex but we are also capable of understanding that we should not rape for sex because it harms people.

As for incest, there isn't one modern morality. There are moral struggles in modern societies. I think that incest among consensual adults should not be prohibited and consensual relationships usually don't require moral outrage.

Modern morality is a result of people judging past and current moralities based on some standards and reaching some conclusions. Are all conclusions equally valid? To give a very extreme example, are say people who want to exterminate a race of other people because they deem them inferior as moral as those who don't want to harm other people for such foolish reasons?

I personally think that the standards of human welfare and well being to the extends that they can be determined are an excellent human standard. Human welfare necessitates autonomy/freedom, rights to not be harmed, etc.

A view that all different moral systems are the same doesn't really makes sense and is certainly a view that does not concern it self with human progress or welfare at all. Which means that we are not concerned if unbelievable human suffering happens because we decide that we shouldn't judge it or that we are incapable of judging morality.

A view that we can't judge people or societies of the past (or morality is what a society thinks it is even if one disagrees) amounts to the view that we can't judge moral systems and can't justify our modern morality. O Modern morality is a result of people judging past and current morality and deciding what they prefer based on some standards. As modern people we might do the same and bring changes to the world as it is today. We are not living in the end of history and expect people 100 years from now to be talking about today's morality. And in every society there are always people with different views who disagree about the dominant morality. If it is oppressive and unfair they might see it for example. And those people often achieve change in the standards of those society.

However it is true that when judging past human societies we should be less judgmental for reasons already explained. (it is harder for individuals to act differently from their social standards).

Some moral systems and societies (Westeros for example) are worse and more backwards than others. That is true when we compare real life societies and when we compare fictional ones as well. There is not one uniform modern morality but mostly in the western world it concerns it self with rights of the individual, human welfare, we try to view men and female as equals, human rights and so on. If you care about human rights you can't think that all moral systems are the same or a society decides what is the right morality even if in that society oppression of human rights is seen as right.

[Nausicaä]

Yepppp.....people are on the PC wagon and imposing their own upbringing and "TODAY"s moral viewpoint....on a FICTIONAL society.

In the US, with today's laws and moral code, is any sort of non consensual sex considered rape? yes

But this is a book...with a fictional world and society where the rules of HERE AND NOW do not apply.

SO....I will reiterate...within the realm of FANTASY and WESTEROS......rape and "nonconsensual but not necessarily forced marital" sex are definitely two different things.

We don't live there, what does it matter to us what definition is used in that realm? When we judge characters, we have to judge them by our standards because it's practical. You can't expect readers to get into the mindset of the various characters and judge them according to the fantasy standards. For example, what do you think we should do when two various book cultures disagree? The Ironborn think that if a man pays for and wears embellished clothes and jewelery that makes him effeminate and weak, but most of the Westeros disagrees with them. Am I not allowed to call Balon's comments to Theon about Ned Stark liking to make him his sweet daughter ridiculous, because I am then imposing my own upbringing on a fictional society or is it okay for me to do it but only because some men in another fictional society would agree with my point of view?

Not saying that this applies to you, but in my experience, your argument is often used to justify only the slavery, sexualization of young female characters by older male characters and marital rape. It's not ever used to defend customs and attitudes like the one I mentioned above or the treatment dwarfs get or torture. In my opinion, you can't pick and choose. Either you judge everything by Westerosi morals or you judge everything by your own.

ETA: I have to go now, so if you reply to this, I will only be able to answer in a few hours, sorry!