Jon Snow at the Crossroads of Resurrection Mythology

[Associate Maester]

Tiamat slain by Marduk is the first example of "Hero slays Dragon to create the World" that I can think of. There's also Odin and his brothers slaying Ymir (Not a Dragon, but an Ice Giant) and Mithras slaying the Bull of Heaven (Roman Mithraism has some mysterious connection to Zoroastrianism).

EDIT: Ninja'd :)

EDIT 2: Actually, I started thinking about Mithraism and suddenly remembered it's hierarchical, degree system. I have a feeling there might be some connection to be made, but can't put my finger on it. So I'll just leave it there so you better than me at this can take your guesses. From the lesser to the greater:

Corax, sub Mercurius (Crow under Mercury)

Nymphus, sub Venus ( Bridegroom under Venus)

Miles, sub Mars (Soldier under Mars)

Leo, sub Iupiter (Lion under Jupiter)

Perses, sub Luna (Persian under the Moon)

Heliodromus, sub Sol (Sun-driver under Sun)

Pater, sub Saturnus (Father under Saturn)

Connection to Mithras\Jon and the Night's Watch too. In Zoroastrianism; Mithras is a guardian figure (sometimes a god, sometimes an angel depending on the text) that is "Ever vigilant and ever watchful." He's one of the judges that guards the bridge separating the living from the dead. After the third day the soul of the dead person is judged and the bridge widens if they are good and narrows if it they are evil and they fall into hell.

[butterbumps!]

Well you are right, but I prefer actual death. Only in order to be free from his vows to NW :leaving: .

Well, I see where you're coming from, but it brings up another issue that is more dreadful to me. I have this feeling that magics used to enslave and to raise the dead are big "no nos" that upset the natural order of things-- especially cheating death. If Jon is dead and literally reborn, I think that he'll have to die for good in order to keep the proper cycle of life- I really think by the end there will be no more "undeads." I happen to think that he isn't literally dead at the end of DwD anyway, and think a figurative descent into an underworld-- be it Bran's cave or the crypts of Winterfell- is enough to satisfy the idea of rebirth.

[Associate Maester]

Haha! as much as I associate Mance with Morpheus/ Orpheus, I admit that these are more superficial than necessarily indicators of what I think will really happen. The full parallels aren't quite there- He didn't "look back" or bring death upon her in any way (unless one extends his culpability in making her with child). But (and a big but), I could see Mance's Orpheus role coming to fruition if he descends the bowels of Winterfell and tries bringing something to "the realm of the living." But I only make this connection out of convenience because Mance is physically there.

On a more straightforward note, I still see this part of a journey- going into another realm and bringing something back- as being more related to Jon's "rebirth," whether Jon journeys to the CotF and receives his boon, awakens something in the Wall, or brings something back from the crypts of Winterfell.

Apple mentioned that the Red God's followers will be reborn and given a new life, related to Norse myth. I see a parallel here to the Horn of Joramun, which "wakes the sleepers;" I assume that means the "dead." When Apple first ran the seeds of the OP by me, my first thought regarding the army of undead was the Nights King, who had found a way to "ensorcel" his men (raise them as wights?), and had to be put down by Joramun and the Stark in Winterfell. I'd wondered if the NK initially had this horn to raise and bind souls, and that upon his defeat, Joramun took it and made it his, keeping it safe. Though the Horn is perceived as dangerous and the NK reviled, could this have been the "boon" the CotF gave to the Last Hero? A way to bind the souls of the wights to their commander, which in the right hands, might lead the undead to turn against the Others? Is this why the NW are the "Horns that wake the sleepers?"

There are connections within Christianity to the idea of a horn rump waking the sleepers he dead as well. 1st Corinthians 15:52, "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead shall be raised inperishable, and we will be changed." This is specifically in reference to what will happen when Jesus returns.

[Tagganaro]

Do you think Hades would be as happy as Jon was to get his ass kicked? lol.

For sure. As Jon was aware, and I'm sure Hades would be, it is an absolute honor to get one's ass kicked by Mance. Didn't Tormund also get beat up by Mance several times and now he's like his most loyal follower? Or did Tormund just join him from the start?

He would have to put Kerberos to bed. :drunk:

That would be easy. He'd go all Harry Potter on him with the music and then the rest would be easy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There are connections within Christianity to the idea of a horn rump waking the sleepers he dead as well. 1st Corinthians 15:52, "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead shall be raised inperishable, and we will be changed." This is specifically in reference to what will happen when Jesus returns.

Yes, you have trumpets blowing in Revelation as well, seven (?!) of them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well, I see where you're coming from, but it brings up another issue that is more dreadful to me. I have this feeling that magics used to enslave and to raise the dead are big "no nos" that upset the natural order of things-- especially cheating death. If Jon is dead and literally reborn, I think that he'll have to die for good in order to keep the proper cycle of life- I really think by the end there will be no more "undeads." I happen to think that he isn't literally dead at the end of DwD anyway, and think a figurative descent into an underworld-- be it Bran's cave or the crypts of Winterfell- is enough to satisfy the idea of rebirth.

That is what I beleive too. I meant that Jon need to be near dead (or comatosed) in order to be free. I don't want an UnJon (to play cyvasse with UnCat in the end).He just need a way out of his vows.

That would be easy. He'd go all Harry Potter on him with the music and then the rest would be easy.

That's my thought too.

[butterbumps!]

There are connections within Christianity to the idea of a horn rump waking the sleepers he dead as well. 1st Corinthians 15:52, "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead shall be raised inperishable, and we will be changed." This is specifically in reference to what will happen when Jesus returns.

I forgot about this, but quite salient. Yea, I think this is quite interesting-- we've all been so focused on "Lightbringer" or a sword in all this, but kind of gloss over the power of horns, which, when you think about it, can do a hell of a lot more in terms of fighting the Others than a single sword (or a dragon for that matter). I'm pretty convinced at this point that the Horn of Winter/ Joramun is the gift from the CotF.

I guess a big question for me now is who is to be woken? The kings of Winter, currently residing at Winterfell? This makes sense to me, because of the many allusions to Jon being called into the crypts (and would be quite poetic)-- maybe that's why they are there in the first place....And it goes to something Apple said in the brainstorm stages about the return of the past kings as a fighting force (kind of a LoTR vibe).

If we get shades of the Kings of Winter coming out to fight the Others, I might just tinkle myself. :bowdown:

lol. Yes, tears to my eyes as well.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I guess a big question for me now is who is to be woken? The kings of Winter, currently residing at Winterfell? This makes sense to me, because of the many allusions to Jon being called into the crypts (and would be quite poetic)-- maybe that's why they are there in the first place....And it goes to something Apple said in the brainstorm stages about the return of the past kings as a fighting force (kind of a LoTR vibe).

If we get shades of the Kings of Winter coming out to fight the Others, I might just tinkle myself. :bowdown:

[Associate Maester]

Yes, you have trumpets blowing in Revelation as well, seven (?!) of them.

Great catch! The first two trumpets bring punishment via fire and blood (!), the third causes a comet to fall poisoning water, the fourth trump causes the sun and stars to darken for a period of time. The last three are announced as the "Woes." The fifth trump heralds a falling star that brings smoke, fire, and monsters that can torment but not kill human beings even though people will beg for death. The sixth brings an army of supernatural beings wearing armor described as "The color of fire and sapphire" and killing with fire and sulfur. The seventh trumpet raised the dead for judgement.

A detail relevant to Apple and Butter's latest comments. The monsters that come when the fifth trumpet sounds are commanded by Abaddon best translated as "king of destruction."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Great catch! The first two trumpets bring punishment via fire and blood (!), the third causes a comet to fall poisoning water, the fourth trump causes the sun and stars to darken for a period of time. The last three are announced as the "Woes." The fifth trump heralds a falling star that brings smoke, fire, and monsters that can torment but not kill human beings even though people will beg for death. The sixth brings an army of supernatural beings wearing armor described as "The color of fire and sapphire" and killing with fire and sulfur. The seventh trumpet raised the dead for judgement.

Fire and blood are obvious. The comet poisoning the water is much vaguer. The one bringing darkness could tie into another Long Night. We have winged beasts and stone smoked monsters and whatnot. The army of supernatural beings could be the Others. And the seventh is your garden-variety risen-dead moment.

[WinterWarrior]

It's a pretty common motif in Near-Eastern myth. The most well-known one is the Babylonian myth found in the Enuma Elish (the original mythology can be traced back to the Akkadians). Marduk slays the primordial dragon\sea serpent Tiamat and from her body creates land, sky, and the milky way. Dragons and water are both linked in Near-Eastern mythology as forces of chaos that must be given order by divinely appointed heroes.

Most bible scholars see the first creation story (Genesis 1) as being influenced during the Hebrew Babylonian exile by the Enuma Elish. Those writing the texts after the fall of the Temple and forced exile were influenced by this mythology (let there be light....). The pretext of creation is that God creates order out of chaos, and order is godly while chaos is of evil. The second creation story (Genesis 2; the rib) is a much older Hebrew myth that does not reflect this mythology. So i think this understanding of the divine has been with us for a long time: diety = peace, order; evil=chaos and the divine creates order out of chaos.

Well if Westeros is anything, its chaotic! A hero is needed to set things right.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I feel like we're all having a spiritual moment here. :D

[Sand Snake No. 9]

John is definitely my pick for the Christ-figure in this story based on any number of things. For example, the Biblical savior was to come from the House of David; the PtwP is to come from the line Aerys and Rhaella, and if R + L + J, as many of us suspect, that requirement of heritage will be fulfilled. And then there are the bigger parallels, like Jesus, Jon is not recognized as a savior and his message is ignored by the very people he's come to save, and those people eventually persecute and kill him. I also think it's significant that Jon's "message" (which in his case is basically common sense) is enthusiastically embraced by outsiders rather than the establishment.

Then, of course, there was Stannis tempting Jon with everything Jon ever wanted, a Temptation in the Snow instead of a Temptation in the Desert, which Jon refused in favor of keeping faith. Hmmn, that Stannis, I knew there was something fishy about him . . .

[Associate Maester]

Most bible scholars see the first creation story (Genesis 1) as being influenced during the Hebrew Babylonian exile by the Enuma Elish. Those writing the texts after the fall of the Temple and forced exile were influenced by this mythology (let there be light....). The pretext of creation is that God creates order out of chaos, and order is godly while chaos is of evil. The second creation story (Genesis 2; the rib) is a much older Hebrew myth that does not reflect this mythology. So i think this understanding of the divine has been with us for a long time: diety = peace, order; evil=chaos and the divine creates order out of chaos.

Hmmm, chaos reminds me of Cersei and the game going on in Kings Landing. It has thrown all of Westeros into chaos! We will see if the new Jon will provide order as a good hero should do!

Great points in regards to the history of the creation stories in Genesis (Four-source theory and redactors FTW). Connecting KL and Cersei's machinations is brilliant. Crap, now you've got me thinking about that in relationship to a Ugaritic cycle of myths involving Baal battling the dragon Lotan as a part of the game of thrones being played between the god.

[Associate Maester]

I feel like we're all having a spiritual moment here. :D

Now everyone hug before someone starts a holy war. :devil:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then, of course, there was Stannis tempting Jon with everything Jon ever wanted, a Temptation in the Snow instead of a Temptation in the Desert, which Jon refused in favor of keeping faith. Hmmn, that Stannis, I knew there was something fishy about him . . .

:stunned:

Mind. Blown.

On that note, is that an in-text suggestion that the old gods are the "true" religion, whereas Melisandre's fire faith and everything that goes with it is heretical?

Crap, now you've got me thinking about that in relationship to a Ugaritic cycle of myths involving Baal battling the dragon Lotan as a part of the game of thrones being played between the god.

Gesundheit.

[Associate Maester]

John is definitely my pick for the Christ-figure in this story based on any number of things. For example, the Biblical savior was to come from the House of David; the PtwP is to come from the line Aerys and Rhaella, and if R + L + J, as many of us suspect, that requirement of heritage will be fulfilled. And then there are the bigger parallels, like Jesus, Jon is not recognized as a savior and his message is ignored by the very people he's come to save, and those people eventually persecute and kill him. I also think it's significant that Jon's "message" (which in his case is basically common sense) is enthusiastically embraced by outsiders rather than the establishment.

Then, of course, there was Stannis tempting Jon with everything Jon ever wanted, a Temptation in the Snow instead of a Temptation in the Desert, which Jon refused in favor of keeping faith. Hmmn, that Stannis, I knew there was something fishy about him . . .

That Temptation bit is a great parallel if you think about what Dany is going through right now. She had her Exodus\wandering in the desert and now she's in her own temptation in the desert.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Gesundheit.

Γείτσες :leaving:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That Temptation bit is a great parallel if you think about what Dany is going through right now. She had her Exodus\wandering in the desert and now she's in her own temptation in the desert.

And as Butterbumps said, she seems to have given in to her temptation — allowing herself to begin a full-blown fire-and-blood mission, relying on a hallucination of her dead brother and embracing her inner monster.

[WinterWarrior]

This thread makes me think that maybe one of the reasons I love these books so much is they tap into the "power of myth" that has really shaped me - without my being aware of it!

I have to think about that one. I never thought about the parallels to the Christ story before.....the temptations, the rejection by their own but acceptance by outsiders, the desert experience.....hmmm..I knew I liked Jon Snow for some reason.