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Manning the Royal Navy: WK's Guide to Shipping in ASoIaF-Take 2

Winter's Knight

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Winter's Knight Council Member

Winter's Knight

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We're back, by popular demand! This thread is dedicated to exploring various possible romantic relationships and the effects they have had on the characters concerned. Note that we shall not be discussing fanfiction here-though you're welcome to do so via PM.

Now, the number one problem with heading the ASoIaF Navy is the irritating regularity with which God (Martin) tends to sink said ship-as all hands aboard the vessels Throbb, Bambi, Obellari and Donerik will tell you.

Not that this has stopped us romantics of course. ASoIaF does boast the SanSan flagship after all. However, the tendency of one or both partners to take a (literal) arrow to the head does put a dampener on the mood.

Lots of posters ask me "WK, how do you come up with such ridiculous interesting ships?" and my answer is that it requires a delicate balance between alcohol and a desire to see more happiness in the books. Call it the Emma Syndrome but I hate to see characters end up lonely or stuck with incompatible partners. (I'm looking at you TySan)

Another question I get asked a lot is, "Damnit WK! Why can't you understand that sometimes gentlemen need to express their undying love for each other in highly poetic innuendo can be really good friends without there being any romantic angle involved?" to which I say that of course gents can be friends with gents without "despoiling" their relationship through lust-just as ladies can be friends with ladies and gents can be friends with ladies (Stop trying to make Gendrya happen!).

And there's a very easy way to test this: just imagine that one of the characters in question is of the opposite gender. So, for example let's suppose that Robert is Roberta. Now stop re-imagining the wedding night and pay attention. If Ned had paid half as much devotion, dedication, poetry and space in his thoughts to Roberta as he does to Robert, surely a few eyebrows would be raised? Yes? Good, moving on.

Lets say you're interesting in exploring shipping in ASoIaF.Maybe you've a ship of your own you'd like to launch or maybe you're interested in joining the crew of a pre-existing ship. There are some arbitrary guidelines I've discovered that you may find useful:

  • Ask yourself "Does my ship make sense?" Is she sea-worthy? Will she float? Are you as a captain able to defend your vessel?
    It is imperative that the two people meet or have a good chance of meeting in the future. Ships involving Tommen and Mycella are a bad idea, for example as they don't seem likely to outlive book 6.
  • Is it healthy? And by healthy, I don't mean the slightly upsetting Brienne/Jaime or the more than toxic Jaime/Cersei dynamic, I mean the dear-R'hilor-what-are-you-thinking squick that comes with pairings involving Ramsay or Gregor.
  • One fan's squee may be another man's squick-unless you're using Ramsay or Gregor, in which case, see point #3.
  • Sometimes, one's ship reaches port. That is to say, the relationship plays out and the characters involved part ways-such as Willas/Oberyn. Jaime/Cersei seems to be tending towards this.

And now my fellow ship-wrights-go forth and...shipify!

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Tagganaro Council Member

Tagganaro

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What are peoples problems with some good old-fashioned Bromance? I'm with you on everything WK. There's more than enough evidence for most of the relationships you propose, and the other ones are a good laugh anyway so I don't see the problem.

3K- oh god. The ship that launched a thousand...comments?

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Sand Snake No. 9 Council Member

Sand Snake No. 9

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Thanks so much, WK!!! Now people, get CRAZY.

Meanwhile, I'm being lazy and copying my post from Version 1 here.

"Gendrya? Never (and so said GRRM, reportedly). Besides it's Sansa who's going to marry a blacksmith – or a fat innkeeper. Jaime Lannister has spoken. Suck it up, Sansanistas.

I ship Arya and Asha in a strictly platonic girl-power way. This ship will work because one of the parties actually can float a boat, and because when all of the necessary killing in Westeros is done, there's f*ck-all left for these girls, unless Asha really can take the Iron Islands. Anyhoo, they shouldn't hang around waiting to be married off like the good little girls they are not, they should get on that ship and go adventuring. Aaar! Girl pirates!

I think Ramsay was getting freaky with his Reek, but I wouldn't exactly call that a ship, unless there's a category of sickship. Actually I think most of most of the popular pairings are sickships, but hey . . .

snapback.pngBlack Wolf Smith, on 04 August 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Where do you live? I never heard a guy say anything like that. As far as better looking guy getting more ladies, I think the women here are going to eat you alive. But guys that get the most "ladies" are bolder, with less morals, not better looking.

No, if we're talking about hooking up, good looking works, and tall and good-looking works even better. I mean everybody wants to leave the bar with a babe. A woman looking for marriage or a life-partner probably has different criteria, but all things being equal, I bet she'll take the good-looking alternative. In other words, women often act just like men do.

I don't think I particularly want any two people to get together, but boy howdy, are there a lot I do NOT want to see together. I don't think anyone has appeared who is worthy of Arianne's awesomeness – not to mention worthy of Dorne. If Willas is indeed boring, she'd eat him alive, and besides he's got Highgarden, he doesn't need Dorne too.

I'm indifferent to SanSan. If Sansa's only options are Littlefinger, Tyrion or Sandor, I'd say Sandor's the best of the three; at least he cares about her more than he cares for his ambitions AND he can kick some serious ass which is a definite advantage in the crapsack world of Westeros. However somewhere in the same crapsack world there's a blacksmith or innkeeper waiting for her . . . oh lord, that's it! It's SanPie! Alternatively I'd go for SanStan; fans would finally get that union of Stark and Baratheon they're waiting for (the gods know why) and Stannis could stop grinding his teeth.

Jon deserves someone awesome if he survives saving the world. My choice would be Wylla Manderly because she's feisty and her daddy is rich. (I believe Val has her own agenda that doesn't include playing Lady of Castle Boring.)

Jaime and Brienne will be ruined if they ever do it.

UnCat and the Late Lord Frey are clearly made for each other. Un/Frey, the sooner the better.

ETA: Has anyone mention Bronrion? Clearly as long as Tyrion's got the dime, Bronn has the time -- if no murderous Mountains are involved. Besides, looks don't matter as much when you're doing it doggy style . . ."

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Kittykatknits Council Member

Kittykatknits

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Wk: really really basic request, could you recommend a comprehensive sansan thread, I totally get that ship for sure Im just lookin for like stuff in the text. It would have to be all from got and acok right?

I'll take care of that for you. There's a really good thread that talks about this. I'll find it and send you the link. I'll also quote Martin cause I just seem to be doing that a lot lately: "There's something there...I played with it a little".

And k3....WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?

What are peoples problems with some good old-fashioned Bromance? I'm with you on everything WK. There's more than enough evidence for most of the relationships you propose, and the other ones are a good laugh anyway so I don't see the problem.

3K- oh god. The ship that launched a thousand...comments?

Sorry guys. i saw the Baratheon thread and couldn't help myself. I'm a horrible person with no impulse control.

Nothing wrong with a good bromance. But, NedBert ain't one of them.

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Kittykatknits Council Member

Kittykatknits

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Wk: really really basic request, could you recommend a comprehensive sansan thread, I totally get that ship for sure Im just lookin for like stuff in the text. It would have to be all from got and acok right?

There is also this, put in to spoiler tags because of length:

A GAME OF THRONES (BOOK 1)

-

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile.“You are shaking, girl,” he said, his voice rasping. “Do I frighten you so much?”

He did, and had since she had first laid eyes on the ruin that fire had made of his face, though it seemed to her now that he was not half so terrifying as the other.

-

“And you, dog, away with you, you’re scaring my betrothed.”

The Hound, ever faithful, bowed and slid away quietly through the press. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She flet like such a fool. She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be a queen. “It was not him, my sweet prince,” she tried to explain. “It was the other one.”

-

“I didn’t know you had a dog…”

Joffrey laughed. “He’s my mother’s dog, in truth. She has set him to guard me, and so he does.”

“You mean the Hound,” she said. She wanted to hit herself for being so slow. Her prince would never love her if she seemed stupid. “Is it safe to leave him behind?”

Prince Joffrey looked annoyed that she would even ask. “Have no fear, lady.”

..

And so they left her direwolf and his bodyguard behind them, while they ranged east along the north bank of the Trident with no company save Lion’s Tooth.

-

(Ned’s POV)

Ned Stark would have loved nothing so well as to see them both lose, but Sansa was watching it all moist-eyed and eager. The hastily erected gallery trembled as the horses broke into a gallop.

The Hound leaned forward as he rode, his lance rock steady, but Jaime shifted his seat deftly in the instant before impact. Clegane’s point was turned harmlessly against the golden shield with the lion blazon, while his own hit square. Wood shattered, and the Hound reeled, fighting to keep his seat. Sansa gasped. A ragged cheer went up from the commons.

“I wonder how I ought spend your money,” Littlefinger called down to Lord Renly.

The Hound just managed to stay in his saddle. He jerked his mount around hard and rode back to the lists for the second pass. Jaime Lannister tossed down his broken lance and snatched up a fresh one, jesting with his squire. The Hound spurred forward at a hard gallop. Lannister rode to meet him. This time, when Jaime shifted his seat, Sandor Clegane shifted with him. Both lances exploded, and by the time the splinters had settled, a riderless blood bay was trotting off in search of grass while Ser Jaime Lannister rolled in the dirt, golden and dented.

Sansa said, “I knew the Hound would win.”

-

(Ned’s POV)

“Is the Hound the champion now?” Sansa asked Ned.

“No,” he told her. “There will be one final joust, between the Hound and the Knight of Flowers.”

But Sansa had the right of it after all. A few moments later Ser Loras Tyrell walked back onto the field in a simple linen doublet and said to Sandor Clegane, “I owe you my life. The day is yours, ser.”

“I am no ser,” the Hound replied, but he took the victory, and the champion’s purse, and, for perhaps the first time in his life, the love of the commons. They cheered him as he left the lists to return to his pavilion.

-

(Arya’s POV)

Arya screwed up her face in a scowl. “Jaime Lannister murdered Jory and Heward and Wyl, and the Hound murdered Mycah. Somebody should have beheaded them.”

”It’s not the same,” Sansa said. “The Hound is Joffrey’s sworn shield. Your butcher’s boy attacked the prince.”

-

She wanted to rage, to hurt him as he’d hurt her, to warn him that when she was queen she would have him exiled if he ever dared strike her again… but she remembered what the Hound had told her, so all she said was, “I shall do whatever His Grace commands.”

“As I do,” he replied.

“Yes… but you are no true knight, Ser Meryn.”

Sandor Clegane would have laughed at that, Sansa knew.

-

In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound’s voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. “Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants.”

-

The Hound was right, she thought, I am only a little bird, repeating the words they taught me.

-

A CLASH OF KINGS (BOOK 2)

-

Arys Oakheart was courteous, and would talk to her cordially. Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued. The others obeyed without question… except for the Hound, but Joff never asked the Hound to punish her. He used the other five for that.

-

(Arya’s POV, when she gets captured by Gregor)

Three black dogs raced across his faded yellow surcoat, and his face looked as hard as if it had been cut from stone. Suddenly Arya knew where she had seen those dogs before. The night of the tourney at King’s Landing, all the knights had hung their shields outside their pavilions. “That one belongs to the Hound’s brother,” Sansa had confided when they passed the black dogs on the yellow field. “He’s even bigger than Hodor, you’ll see. They call him the Mountain That Rides.”

-

She was afraid of Sandor Clegane… and yet, some part of her wished that Ser Dontos had a little of the Hound’s ferocity.

-

Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing. Only Ser Dontos had tried to help, and he was no longer a knight, no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound… the Hound hated knights… I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.

-

They had hemmed her in and thrown filth at her and tried to pull her off her horse, and would have done worse if the Hound had not cut his way to her side.

-

Of late Ser Osmund had taken Sandor Clegane’s place by Joffrey’s side, and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster. If that was so, she wondered why she had never once heard of these Kettleblacks before Ser Osmund was named to the Kingsguard.

-

…and finally, toward the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound. He is no true knight but he saved me all the same, she told the Mother. Save him if you can, and gentle the rage inside him.

-

(her and Cersei talking about Ser Ilyn)

“When the axes smash down those doors, you may be glad of him.”

I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

-

A STORM OF SWORDS (BOOK 3)

-

The same smallfolk who pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound.

-

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside… she could scarcely imagine it.

-

When the appointed night arrived, another of the Kingsguard (Loras) came for her, a man as different from Sandor Clegane as… well, as a flower from a dog.

-

(FALSE KISS MEMORY - 1)

Megga couldn’t sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn’t the same as kissing a man, much less a king. Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He’d come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

-

“With this kiss I pledge my love,” the dwarf replied hoarsely, “and take you for my lady and wife.”

He leaned forward, and their lips touched briefly. He is so ugly, Sansa thought when his face was close to hers. He is even uglier than the Hound.

-

In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane. Did he know that they’d killed Joffrey? Would he care? He had been the prince’s sworn shield for years.

-

Sansa found Bryen’s old blind dog in her little alcove beneath the steps, and lay down next to him. He woke and licked her face. “You sad old hound,” she said, ruffling his fur.

-

Sansa heard the soft sound of steel on leather. “Singer,” a rough voice said, “best go, if you want to sing again.” The light was dim, but she saw a faint glimmer of a blade.

The singer saw it too. “Find your own wench -” The knife flashed, and he cried out. “You cut me!”

“I’ll do worse, if you don’t go.”

And quick as that, Marillion was gone. The other remained, looming over Sansa in the darkness. “Lord Petyr said watch out for you.” It was Lothor Brune’s voice, she realized. Not the Hound’s, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor…

-

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said.

-

A FEAST FOR CROWS (BOOK 4)

-

And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

-

The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound. Though his hair was grey and his face lined, Lord Yohn still looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands.

-

(FALSE KISS MEMORY - 2)

As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

-

(FALSE KISS MEMORY - 3)

“You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?”

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod.

-

(In AFFC, Sansa thinks about Sandor only one time less than Arya thinks about him, and Arya had just spent a book travelling very memorably with him while Sansa hadn’t seen him for a long time.)

-

(In ASOS, Sandor (unprompted!) brings up Sansa in conversation twelve separate times in eight chapters, he’s like Sam when it comes to Gilly)

-

A bunch of interestingly-described stuff (listed all out of order)

  • The Hound pulled her to her feet, not ungently.
  • The Hound gave her a push, oddly gentle, and followed her down the steps.
  • Sandor Clegane scooped her up around the waist and lifted her off the featherbed as she struggled feebly. He pushed her toward her wardrobe, almost gently.
  • Joffrey reached for her, and Sansa cringed away from him, backing into the Hound.
  • She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway. Sansa caromed into him and lost her balance. Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall, and a deep voice rasped at her.
  • A stab went through her, so sharp that Sansa sobbed and clutched at her belly. She might have fallen, but a shadow moved suddenly, and strong fingers grabbed her arm and steadied her.
  • Then something stirred behind her, and a hand reached out of the dark and grabbed her wrist.
  • “That one is nothing to fear, girl.” The Hound laid a heavy hand on her shoulder. “Paint stripes on a toad, he does not become a tiger.”
  • “Here, girl.” Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.
  • “The girl speaks truly,” the Hound rasped. “What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.”
  • “Enough,” she heard the Hound rasp.
  • Sandor Clegane unfastened his cloak and tossed it at her. Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine.
  • The rasping voice trailed off. He squatted silently before her, a hulking black shape shrouded in the night, hidden from her eyes. Sansa could hear his ragged breathing. She was sad for him, she realized. Somehow, the fear had gone away.
    The silence went on and on, so long that she began to grow afraid once more, but she was afraid for him now, not for herself. She found his massive shoulder with her hand. “He was no true knight,” she whispered to him.
  • Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood.
  • Sandor Clegane cantered briskly through the gates astride Sansa’s chestnut courser. The girl was seated behind, both arms tight around the Hound’s chest.
  • Clegane lifted her to the ground. His white cloak was torn and stained, and blood seeped through a jagged tear in his left sleeve. “The little bird’s bleeding. Someone take her back to her cage and see to that cut.”
  • The Hound sat on the bench closest the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. “She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black.” He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.
  • The Hound poured a cup of wine for Arya and another for himself, and drank it down while staring at the hearthfire. “The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp’s head and flew off.”
  • “A pretty girl, I hear,” said the Tickler. “Honey sweet.” He smacked his lips and smiled.
    “And courteous,” the Hound agreed. “A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister.”

-

The list of men she has compared Sandor Clegane/the Hound positively to so far includes:

  • Eddard Stark
  • Ilyn Payne
  • Osmund Kettleblack
  • Tyrion Lannister
  • Loras Tyrell
  • Robert/Sweetrobin Arryn
  • Petyr Baelish
  • Dontos Hollard
  • Lothor Brune
  • Bronze Yohn Royce

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Winter's Knight Council Member

Winter's Knight

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Awww, I like this one. Now I'm sad.

Just to cheer you up:

I found a slight hint supporting Dany/Stannis. Going by hints in the show and books, it seems highly likely that Stannis shall end up as the Night King. And we all remember Dany's dream about sleeping with a man who's member was like ice.

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Winter's Knight Council Member

Winter's Knight

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I fear people won't afford to let it come. They'll torpedo it; sorry

Calling anti-ships submarines has to be then single most brilliant thing I've read today.

My subs:

Jaime/Brienne

Dany/Jorah

Dany/Victarion

Dany/Tyion

Tyrion/Sansa

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Kittykatknits Council Member

Kittykatknits

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Just to cheer you up:

I found a slight hint supporting Dany/Stannis. Going by hints in the show and books, it seems highly likely that Stannis shall end up as the Night King. And we all remember Dany's dream about sleeping with a man who's member was like ice.

If there is evidence for it, I know you'll find it. I doubt it will happen but I find the idea pretty hilarious I admit.

I fear people won't afford to let it come. They'll torpedo it; sorry

I know, it's sunk before I could even get it to launch.

Do you plan on administering a SanSan course of study? This is huge

Huh? Not sure what you mean, did the spoiler tag not work? And don't tempt me...

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Lady Lea Council Member

Lady Lea

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Just to cheer you up:

I found a slight hint supporting Dany/Stannis. Going by hints in the show and books, it seems highly likely that Stannis shall end up as the Night King. And we all remember Dany's dream about sleeping with a man who's member was like ice.

Now this just made me think of Edward from Twilight and his popsicle dick. (yes it's in the book)

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LordBloodraven Council Member

LordBloodraven

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Calling anti-ships submarines has to be then single most brilliant thing I've read today.

My subs:

Jaime/Brienne

Dany/Jorah

Dany/Victarion

Dany/Tyion

Tyrion/Sansa

Why not Jaime/Brienne? This one is kind of Westeros's Pride and Prejudice. And for the Dany/Stannis, have you seen the war between their supporters in the board?

I know, it's sunk before I could even get it to launch.

Huh? Not sure what you mean, did the spoiler tag not work? And don't tempt me...

Yes, the spoiler tags worked and the "evidence" are numerous enough to start a cursus on the matter.

Now this just made me think of Edward from Twilight and his popsicle dick. (yes it's in the book)

Really? Was it red or green? Perhaps, he's a White Walker...

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