Beauty and self-image

[Field of Asphodel]

Who has the most grounded self-image in Westeros, especially in terms of physical attributes?

Who has the healthiest attitude about his/her own beauty as it relates to his/her own self worth?

[jonconn]

Tyrion.

[brashcandy]

Who has the most grounded self-image in Westeros, especially in terms of physical attributes?

Off the top of my head, probably Catelyn.

[SerStinger]

Sansa? She's the only one I remember not brooding over her looks and commenting positively on it.

[Field of Asphodel]

Tyrion.

My irony-meter's always a bit dysfunctional on the Internet - you are speaking strictly in terms of proximity to the ground, correct?

[Saint Arya]

Arya

[Little Wing]

We don't get her POV but I'm thinking Margaery. Probably Dany too.

[lilenadheas]

Is this inspired by the Aegon Marries Sansa thread? If not, it is an extraordinary coincidence. I love the OP. I think we need to establish what exactly we are looking for when we mean grounded? Grounded in this case means a sense of physical entitlement proportionate to the reality and the opinions of others, yes? This is going to be difficult, because beauty is subjective, so even GRRM's personal taste cannot be used as "WordOfGod", because the readers' tastes must be accounted for, along with the tastes of in universe characters.

[RedBean]

Sansa, probably. She doesn't seem to have as low a self-esteem about her looks or her status in life like so many other POV characters do. Also, Catelyn.

[Field of Asphodel]

Is this inspired by the Aegon Marries Sansa thread? If not, it is an extraordinary coincidence. I love the OP. I think we need to establish what exactly we are looking for when we mean grounded? Grounded in this case means a sense of physical entitlement proportionate to the reality and the opinions of others, yes? This is going to be difficult, because beauty is subjective, so even GRRM's personal taste cannot be used as "Word of God", because the readers' tastes must be accounted for, along with the tastes of in universe characters.

It is, as well parts of the Selyse's mustache discussion. I actually talked to Frey pies <3 about starting a thread to discuss Sansa's "vanity" since neither of us wanted to derail that thread. I haven't read through all the new posts in that thread though - I supposed I should've checked to see if the discussion was raging there.

Regarding defining "grounded" then yes, I do mean appropriate pride (vs vanity) in proportion to internal and external perceptions of beauty. I'm not sure it's possible to have one's own perception of beauty that isn't in part an internalization of others' perceptions.

But to clarify the question, I suppose I mean, who has the healthiest attitude about their own beauty as it relates to their self worth?

[Lady Flandrensis]

I'm not sure what you mean by "grounded". Are you meaning realistic?

[lilenadheas]

It is as well as Selyse's mustache and other things. I actually talked to Frey Pies about starting a thread to discuss Sansa's "vanity" since neither of us wanted to derail that thread. I haven't read through all the new posts in it though - I supposed I should've checked to see if the discussion was raging there.

no, it's not. I'm glad you started this one! No one will talk to me about it in the other :crying:

[KhaleesiDany]

I don't understand what you mean by grounded. Beauty is different for all people depending, not on the person, but on who is looking at them.

If the characters reflect on their beauty, or have their beauty reflected on by others, it is a plot point like Cersei not wanting to believe she is growing old or Dany being "the most beautiful woman in the world". We talked about this in another thread "What Plot Points you would change" about how all the women are "beautiful" but realistically, that is a subjective statement to be considered true, they are just high-born and powerful.

So neither of those characters are "grounded" because they will have an inflated sense of their self-image. Then you have characters like Tyrion who consistently think of themselves as ugly, are in fact disfigured, but won't dream of considering Penny sexually. So he also has an inflated self-image.

Then there are characters like Arya and Brienne who are probably not all that bad looking, but are called ugly by others and think of themselves that way.

Basically no character who ever reflects on their physical appearance is doing so from an objective standpoint. It is just not possible.

So I would say the most grounded character in terms of physical attributes is Jon Snow. He should really think of his features more to wonder how much he looks like his dad, instead he is just considered to have "Stark features." Then he is horribly scarred on his hand, but he never dwells on this like The Hound does or even Victarion, he just does his hand exercises and goes about his day.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Probably Catelyn. Although she does comment on Brienne's looks and calls her "unfortunate," though I think that's due to Westerosi societies views on "female beauty" more than her own opinion.

Also, Daenerys. I've a feeling like she knows she's beautiful (as she's frequently told), but she doesn't seem to be fixed on that idea.

[Little Wing]

I just figured we were talking about characters with healthy self-esteem :dunno: hm, I should go and scratch Dany off my previous post, heh

[ARYa_Nym]

I think it's easier for characters who have been told that they are attractive all their lives. For females especially beauty determines value so if they are told that they are beautiful they will have a high self esteem. They are privileged.

Whereas when Arya is told that she's ugly by her sister and her peers she's going to believe what they're telling her and from those comments she learns to not have value in the way that she looks.

I think Arya is self aware in some respects though like when Tommen and Myrcella see her but don't recognize her. Arya realizes it's because of the way she looks. She looks like a street urchin therefore she is going to pass as one. When she's with the Hound and gets mistaken for a boy and even worse in her opinion as his son she knows that people think that she's a boy so she decides to play the part.

She knows that her hair looks a mess and appreciated it when the waif made her bald because it got rid of the lice and fleas.

Brienne has been told that she's unattractive. She keeps going though and doesn't let it cripple her. She is also delusional though and unaware for example her repeat crushes on men who are physically above her.

Being told that one is attractive can make the person delusional though. Cersei assumes that Rhaegar would have preferred her to Lyanna but this is delusion. She's one of those who assume that she's attractive that all men will want her and she will be able to charm and ensnare them easily. All the men she slept with either didn't like her or turned on her. With Aurane Waters she was either delusional when she thought that he was attracted to her or he was playing on her vanity and used it to play her.

Jeyne Poole was told that she was pretty. In ADWD she's aware that she's not beautiful but due to fear she needs to be reassured from Theon that she is in fact pretty and that she can please Ramsay. Theon tells her that she is because she wants and needs to hear it but he later thinks that she's not pretty at all. I imagine she will be more realistic if the tip of her nose is gone.

Asha is not conventionally attractive but doesn't let that stop her. She gets men easily. Attractive ones as well if we go by the beautiful Lyseni boys that she lost her virginity too. Her personality and status compensates for where her looks are lacking.

I thought Quentyn was very good. He knows that he's not very good looking especially in comparison to Gerris. He wonders if Dany would even want him. She didn't. He had to use the fact that he was the Prince of Dorne to reassure himself. He knew his looks would not cut it. He also seemed to prefer the more attainable female rather than the strikingly beautiful ones which I thought was a realistic divergence from the common theme that no man will not want characters such as Cersei, Dany, Sansa, etc.

We don't have POVs of the Tyrells but I imagine that Loras is aware of his effect on the female population of Westeros but he discards it due to being uninterested and in Sansa's case forgets it.

We don't know much about Brandon but he probably knew he was hot and used it to charm the ladies. I wish we knew more info because Ned seemed jealous of him when he got bitter at just the mention of his name. I wonder if Ned was insecure about his looks in comparison to his brother especially if theories are correct and Brandon got Ashara.

It's easier for Jon than Arya because despite the two of them looking alike only Arya is the one got called ugly and was given names.As I've said earlier if a female is unattractive in Westeros then her value is diminished. A man can get away with it unless he's a dwarf.

Arianne seems good. She knows she comes off very seductive and uses it to her advantage.

“…You need a woman, not a little girl, but I can play the innocent if that excites you.”

Dany doesn't seem delusional like Cersei. She had a very different upbringing than the nobility of Westeros though so that could be a factor as to why her looks don't seem to be that important to her. When whoever it was told her that he saw a look alike in a whorehouse she didn't let that phase her. She also is willing to be the "Unburnt" with having her hair jacked up.

When Jaqen had his face and according to some theories it may have been his real face I believe he knew the effect it had. He used it to his advantage. He had a lot of swagger and Arya repeatedly noticed his looks. He took time to scent his hair and smell nice so he seemed to care about looking good and knew that he did.

The wildlings seem to have a good self image whether unattractive like Ygritte or beautiful like Val. Their society is different though.

[butterbumps!]

Jon, maybe? In that I don't believe he considers it at all in his worth calculus (for himself and others). And Arya might be a good case, because she doesn't think she's beautiful and doesn't really care (though I think there may have been a few times where I thought her attitude might not be so liberated from caring as a sublimation of contempt for those who are beautiful- I have to look for examples, I may be wrong). I think Sansa/ Cat and Marg are worth mention, though I think with them, they (accurately) see beauty as a sort of a tool that can yield benefits in society. Within that framework, I think they have a healthy view of their beauty, where they don't use it as their only tool, nor are they so vain not to recognize the beauty of others out of competitive jealousy.

no, it's not. I'm glad you started this one! No one will talk to me about it in the other :crying:

Uh....is there a mustache-gate discussion that I'm not aware of? Can you point me to it please?

ETA: Arya_Nym- that is a really awesome point about Quentyn.

[Winterfellian]

Am gonna go with Roose Bolton's Fat Walda (am not joking!)

She knows she's fat and she makes no apologies about it or bothers trying to starve herself. She is not exacty Westeros model for physical beauty but she actually seems proud her constitution earned her her lordly husband beating the other skinnier Walda.

[Field of Asphodel]

Am gonna go with Roose Bolton's Fat Walda (am not joking!)

She knows she's fat and she makes no apologies about it or bothers trying to starve herself. She is not exacty Westeros model for physical beauty but she actually seems proud her constitution earned her her lordly husband beating the other skinnier Walda.

I'm sure the gold value of Fat Walda's weight made her seem quite beautiful to Roose.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Am gonna go with Roose Bolton's Fat Walda (am not joking!)

She knows she's fat and she makes no apologies about it or bothers trying to starve herself. She is not exacty Westeros model for physical beauty but she actually seems proud her constitution earned her her lordly husband beating the other skinnier Walda.

This is actually a very good one xD I never thought about it but you're right. Despite being called "Fat Walda," apparently she still doesn't "put down the spoon" and doesn't care.