Littlefinger vs Varys

[Hodors Shlong]

Hello gang...New(ish) to the forums and first time creating a topic, so hopefully I don't blow it.

In reading all the different posts, there seems to be a lot about Varys' moves and how they'll affect what goes on in TWOW. Whether it be (f?)Aegon and Jon connington invading, Dany and the dragons, his potential connections to the citadel, and general whereabouts during AFFC/ADWD, Varys gets a lot of talk in TWOW part of the forum. What I want to know, is where is all the speculation surrounding the other major game of thrones player, Littlefinger?

It seems to me that hes the only other player that can even compete with Varys, and given his position right now with Sansa and the Vale, he has the potential to control most of the North. With the reader's focus in the South on Aegon and Cersei vs Margary, and the Wall / Battle for Winterfell in the North, I think Littlefinger is going to come out of nowhere in TWOW and stir up some serious shit. My question is: Who's plans are going to have a bigger influence on the realm in TWoW: Varys in the south or Littlefinger in the north?

[Whitering]

Well, there are a few balls in the air, as there usually is with Martin. Will Davos produce Rickon? Sansa's northern claim means nothing then, not to mention the North is presently embroiled in a civil war and not likely to have much of an effect beyond being food for the Others no matter what happens.

The Vale, while it has stayed out of the war, has some heavily armed barbarians running around raiding villages and challenging the militias now, so sending out the strength of the Vale could lead to sack of Winterfell like situation in happening there. I think LF will find himself a little hemmed in.

The biggest question mark that may affect both of their plans in a way that neither expected is whether Danny gets back to Westeros in the next book, and whether she takes to Aegon or opposes him, if he lives that long.

Littlefinger doesn't have any plans in the North yet, Tyrion escaped, he is not dead, Sansa is still a virgin and her marriage could be annulled, but that's a big move that will reveal her identity, and as stated, the North isn't really in a position to lend a hand, even if Rickon dies.

[Melisandre's Shadow]

If Rickon does come back, LF and Sans will still have at least a relationship, and presumably a good deal of influence in the North, so it doesn't necessarily rule out LF gaining Northern support. On a different note, does anyone think that Varys disappearance and the vast power gained by the Faith at the Great Sept is a mere coincidence. I think Varys is up to some big plans behind the scenes, and may even be the puppeteer/mastermind of the Faiths trials of the Queen.

[Hodors Shlong]

Well, there are a few balls in the air, as there usually is with Martin. Will Davos produce Rickon? Sansa's northern claim means nothing then, not to mention the North is presently embroiled in a civil war and not likely to have much of an effect beyond being food for the Others no matter what happens.

The Vale, while it has stayed out of the war, has some heavily armed barbarians running around raiding villages and challenging the militias now, so sending out the strength of the Vale could lead to sack of Winterfell like situation in happening there. I think LF will find himself a little hemmed in.

Even if Sansa's claim is squandered if/when Rickon returns, the fact that the two of them are alive could be a huge rallying cry for the North. I feel that just the fact that LF has protected the daughter of Ned Stark could still win him a lot of support, especially given that Rickon is still too young (and possibly out of control) to lead.

If Rickon does come back, LF and Sans will still have at least a relationship, and presumably a good deal of influence in the North, so it doesn't necessarily rule out LF gaining Northern support. On a different note, does anyone think that Varys disappearance and the vast power gained by the Faith at the Great Sept is a mere coincidence. I think Varys is up to some big plans behind the scenes, and may even be the puppeteer/mastermind of the Faiths trials of the Queen.

I definitely think Varys had a hand in that. I think he definitley remained in KL, hiding out in the ruins of the Red Keep. So how could he not have a hand in that?

I also wonder if LF is indeed tied into that at all. We learn in AFfC that he too was planning on Cercei's downfall (granted, anyone with eyes could see that she was a ticking time bomb), but I think its plausible to surmise that he couldve tried to use the faith to his advantage. This is another aspect of the Varys/LF relationship i find interesting; Where their plans and moves in the game of thrones intersect and how they affect one another.

[ebevan91]

Could Sansa actually rule as Regent if Rickon is too young?

[Artos Stark]

Hello gang...New(ish) to the forums and first time creating a topic, so hopefully I don't blow it.

In reading all the different posts, there seems to be a lot about Varys' moves and how they'll affect what goes on in TWOW. Whether it be (f?)Aegon and Jon connington invading, Dany and the dragons, his potential connections to the citadel, and general whereabouts during AFFC/ADWD, Varys gets a lot of talk in TWOW part of the forum. What I want to know, is where is all the speculation surrounding the other major game of thrones player, Littlefinger?

It seems to me that hes the only other player that can even compete with Varys, and given his position right now with Sansa and the Vale, he has the potential to control most of the North. With the reader's focus in the South on Aegon and Cersei vs Margary, and the Wall / Battle for Winterfell in the North, I think Littlefinger is going to come out of nowhere in TWOW and stir up some serious shit. My question is: Who's plans are going to have a bigger influence on the realm in TWoW: Varys in the south or Littlefinger in the north?

I always saw Varys as playing the big game while LF plays the small game. At this point I don't see LF having any chance at putting anyone (including himself) on the Iron Throne. The Vale will not follow him espcially into batle, The North damn sure won't follow him especially with Rickon and Jon Snow and the Riverlands likely won't want to follow him. All of his "control" is on very shaky ground and I honestly would be surprised if he survived the entire TWoW book.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Little finger and Varys both seem to hold exponential knowledge of the game and the battle of ice and fire. Why did littlefinger want the valyrian tapestries? And Varys most likely knew dany would bring back dragons. They both know more than they lead on and I hope that the winds of winter will allow insight into the knowledge and wether Varys uses some sorcery or not.

[aryagonnakill]

I always saw Varys as playing the big game while LF plays the small game. At this point I don't see LF having any chance at putting anyone (including himself) on the Iron Throne. The Vale will not follow him espcially into batle, The North damn sure won't follow him especially with Rickon and Jon Snow and the Riverlands likely won't want to follow him. All of his "control" is on very shaky ground and I honestly would be surprised if he survived the entire TWoW book.

I agree about LF's fate I see him getting it near the end of the book. I think one thing the show really gave away was LF's goal. Varys calls him right out on it "how does it look when you sit up there? Do all the lords and lady's bow their heads?"

[Juan_Snow]

Could Sansa actually rule as Regent if Rickon is too young?

Yes. I could easily see that scenario. I could also see the Vale coming to aid the Starks even if Rickon shows up. With Sansa being Lady of the Vale, and House Royce chomping at the bit to join on their side for a while now that's actually how I see it playing out.

[Maester Domeric]

I agree about LF's fate I see him getting it near the end of the book. I think one thing the show really gave away was LF's goal. Varys calls him right out on it "how does it look when you sit up there? Do all the lords and lady's bow their heads?"

While those scenes are some of my absolute favorite from the show, I don't think its proper to use them as canon in a discussion of the books. Even assuming they can be considered canon, I have doubts that Petyr Baelish wants to sit the throne. While he is gazing intently on it, its Varys that prompts that exchange, that Baelish responds the way he does could very well be him going along with what he thinks Varys wants to hear. Niether one of them I feel would be that honest with each other.

[NitzanLeo]

If Rickon is found, then LF still has the North, since he'll have the Vale through Sansa, and can just make an easy alliance with the North and the Riverlands. It has no real consequences if Davos manages to get him off Skagos.

[aryagonnakill]

If Rickon is found, then LF still has the North, since he'll have the Vale through Sansa, and can just make an easy alliance with the North and the Riverlands. It has no real consequences if Davos manages to get him off Skagos.

I didn't say they could be taken as cannon, just that I agree with the message portrayed.

[The Real Summer Islander]

Little finger and Varys both seem to hold exponential knowledge of the game and the battle of ice and fire. Why did littlefinger want the valyrian tapestries? And Varys most likely knew dany would bring back dragons. They both know more than they lead on and I hope that the winds of winter will allow insight into the knowledge and wether Varys uses some sorcery or not.

i think littlefinger and varys are somehow working together. it seems too convenient that varys gets all his info from "little birds" and lf's sigil is the mockingbird. just a little crackpot. but i think each may have their own agenda but still are helping each other out with some things.

[aryagonnakill]

i think littlefinger and varys are somehow working together. it seems too convenient that varys gets all his info from "little birds" and lf's sigil is the mockingbird. just a little crackpot. but i think each may have their own agenda but still are helping each other out with some things.

I've considered this a lot because we know that Varys could have gotten LF killed at any point for a number of crimes/ revealed things to Robert or Tyrion or Cersei or whoever.

[Grimlorn]

Does Varys know all of Littlefinger's crimes though? It's possible Littlefinger knows about Varys' little birds, or has an idea about them. Varys did express frustration with knowing what Littlefinger's plans were in Game of Thrones.

"Littlefinger... the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing."

So it's possible he doesn't know what Littlefinger exactly up to. It's also possible he wants Littlefinger in the game just to create more chaos to weaken the kingdom.

[mrlukeduke]

I always thought that currently their two goals (bringing down the current powers and destabilizing the Kingdom) just happened to align, for now, and that they both had their own motivations. Varys for Aegon and the Realm; Baelish for his own egomania.

[aryagonnakill]

Does Varys know all of Littlefinger's crimes though? It's possible Littlefinger knows about Varys' little birds, or has an idea about them. Varys did express frustration with knowing what Littlefinger's plans were in Game of Thrones.

"Littlefinger... the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing."

So it's possible he doesn't know what Littlefinger exactly up to. It's also possible he wants Littlefinger in the game just to create more chaos to weaken the kingdom.

Ya I think your right about that. Varys might not know everything, but he has to know something, I always found it hard to believe Varys didn't know Tyrion always bets on his brother. The other thing would have been Jon Aryns murder. While he may not have had the proof of anything, I got the felling he knew it wasn't Cersei since he knows everything else she does, and isn't it Varys who lead ned to the squire.

[Grimlorn]

Oh I'm sure Varys did know about the knife being a lie and didn't say anything because he did want the Starks and Lannisters against each other as did Littlefinger.

I don't think Varys is doing anything for the "good" of the realm. He has his own agenda and allegiance to someone. If he did care about the realm, he wouldn't have served the Mad King so well and stood in the way of Rhaegar taking his father's place.

Another thing was Stannis mentions in SoS,

"Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys. The

eunuch should never have been pardoned."

It's possible that Varys poisoned the King somehow to make him crazy or more crazy.

[Hodors Shlong]

Oh I'm sure Varys did know about the knife being a lie and didn't say anything because he did want the Starks and Lannisters against each other as did Littlefinger.

I don't think Varys is doing anything for the "good" of the realm. He has his own agenda and allegiance to someone. If he did care about the realm, he wouldn't have served the Mad King so well and stood in the way of Rhaegar taking his father's place.

Another thing was Stannis mentions in SoS,

"Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys. The

eunuch should never have been pardoned."

It's possible that Varys poisoned the King somehow to make him crazy or more crazy.

For me, this is one of the key questions surrounding Varys. Did he orchestrate the Mad King's downfall or not? THeres a strong case for either.

I find it hard to believe that given all he knows and the type of influence he has over the realm, especially in KL, that he didn't have a part in Aerys' downfall. I don't know if he actually made the Mad King mad, cause it sounds like he was a nut case to begin with, but he certainly poured gasoline on the fire by making him believe everyone was against him.

But then again, what could his endgame be from that viewpoint? He definitley had the means to orchestrate the Mad King's downfall, but if his whole plan was to have either Aegon or Danerys/Viserys on the throne, then why destroy the Targaryan empire to achieve that? And could he really have forseen Rhaegar kidnapping (or running off with) Lyanna, setting into motion the whole rebellion? Not to mention that would mean that he arrived at KL with this massive, extremely time consuming plan to somehow usurp the throne with his pawn that he somehow concocted while across the sea in the East?

[Grimlorn]

But then again, what could his endgame be from that viewpoint? He definitley had the means to orchestrate the Mad King's downfall, but if his whole plan was to have either Aegon or Danerys/Viserys on the throne, then why destroy the Targaryan empire to achieve that? And could he really have forseen Rhaegar kidnapping (or running off with) Lyanna, setting into motion the whole rebellion? Not to mention that would mean that he arrived at KL with this massive, extremely time consuming plan to somehow usurp the throne with his pawn that he somehow concocted while across the sea in the East?

I was thinking about this and thought perhaps he was working with the Others to weaken the 7 kingdoms for their invasion, but then I read about the Blackfyre theories on here, and I suppose that probably fits more. Especially since he has a connection to Illyrio in Essos. I still think it's possible the Others have human agents in the 7 kingdoms but Varys working to put a Blackfyre on the throne fits more right now. Just not sure why he'd raise him thinking he was Aegon Targaryen. Just seems odd and you'd think that they'd want him to have a Blackfyre name and at least have him know about it to eventually reveal. But if he did reveal it why would his allies still follow him knowing he deceived them all? Just doesn't make perfect sense yet.