Garlan Marius Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 cat letting jamie go was a sign of weakness.I don't think so. She (tried to) make a prisoner exchange deal with Tyrion, who to her knowledge would exchange Sansa and Arya for Jaime. It's a deal that Robb wouldn't make, so her stepping out of "her place" (as just Robb's mother and advisor and into a position of authority) is a power move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkDragon Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 IMO paranoia is a very big trait of weakness not strengthAgreed... but I guess she's being classified into: strong willed, determined, ... strong in the face of adversityI would grant her confident as well, if I didn't think extreme paranoia was contrary to that. Danny is arguably more in every regard of the OP determined definition of strength then every other male character could possibly be in the story. Gets sold, deals with marital rape (IMO, let's not discuss whether or not Drogo did this please), takes over his Khalasar remnants, stands against slavery, and all the while dealing with the sexism of men. Men of her time just couldn't have the same story, nor truly appreciate the depth of such a struggle. cat letting jamie go was a sign of weakness.Cat letting Jaime go was a sign she appreciated her children more than the war, imo. If you really want to go there, many people say Danny holding out in Easos to help slaves, when she's proving inept, is a sign of weakness as well. Similarly, others interpret it as actually being a momentary shift in motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJR the PR of TaFW Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Stannis shouldn't be on the list. Other than that, they're about even.what do you mean? stannis hasnt given up his dream in 5 books! that takes either extreme deteremation or just never wanting to quit (or both) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father of Hosts Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Stannis shouldn't be on the list. Other than that, they're about even.This. It needs to be all POV's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Lion Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 cat letting jamie go was a sign of weakness.well technically yes but i'm not sure if it should count because she was driven rather mental by the grief of her children dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlan Marius Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 still paranoid though.Cersei is being manipulated by littlefinger the whole time, same person who manipulated cat and ned.Cersei is right in her paranoia, joffrey died, her other children will surely die, tyrion killed tywin etc etc Cersei lacks subtly or tact but she was right.Screwing with the Small Council, burning down the Tower of the Hand, recreating the Faith Militant, freezing the crown's debts to the Iron Bank, sleeping with Kettleblack (and dealing with them in the first place, when they actually worked for LF the entire time) letting Qyburn do whatever he wants, sending incompetents to deal with a neutral Bronn, antagonizing the Tyrells...She's not right in her paranoia. She is paranoid about all the wrong things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggs Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 what do you mean? stannis hasnt given up his dream in 5 books! that takes either extreme deteremation or just never wanting to quit (or both)well he's kind of a huge outlier. Stannis is almost superhumanly strongwiled so its not really a fair contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Lion Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Screwing with the Small Council, burning down the Tower of the Hand, recreating the Faith Militant, freezing the crown's debts to the Iron Bank, sleeping with Kettleblack (and dealing with them in the first place, when they actually worked for LF the entire time) letting Qyburn do whatever he wants, sending incompetents to deal with a neutral Bronn, antagonizing the Tyrells...She's not right in her paranoia. She is paranoid about all the wrong things.whats wrong with burning the tower? but none of those affect her strength she's just making terrible decisions fuelled by being manipulated and undermined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 I don't think so. She (tried to) make a prisoner exchange deal with Tyrion, who to her knowledge would exchange Sansa and Arya for Jaime. It's a deal that Robb wouldn't make, so her stepping out of "her place" (as just Robb's mother and advisor and into a position of authority) is a power move.it's debateable i suppose. she would have been stronger if she had stayed the line imo. she put her personal grief above the bigger picture - winning the war, which ultimately was lost because of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 good point about stannis. a strong man would not be following around mel like a lovesick puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Lion Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 it's debateable i suppose. she would have been stronger if she had stayed the line imo. she put her personal grief above the bigger picture - winning the war, which ultimately was lost because of her.i was with you until the end, how did cat lose them the war?Robb lost them the war by marrying jeyne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Why do you want to group characters by their sex? They're all individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkDragon Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 good point about stannis. a strong man would not be following around mel like a lovesick puppy.Alright, now ya dun' it. One sentence that criticizes a character in an excessively simplistic fashion.In thus turn, I offer you one word.Daario.EditWhy do you want to group characters by their sex? They're all individuals.I absolutely agree. The best part of the story is being able to objectively view characters for their own nuances, merits, and dis-merits, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 i was with you until the end, how did cat lose them the war?Robb lost them the war by marrying jeyne.they didn't need the freys until they lost the karstarks, and they lost the karstarks because of catelyn freeing jamie. she lost them the war and ultimately caused her son's death. this is the reason she is so full of hate in her zombie form. she hates herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlan Marius Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 they didn't need the freys until they lost the karstarks, and they lost the karstarks because of catelyn freeing jamie. she lost them the war and ultimately caused her son's death. this is the reason she is so full of hate in her zombie form. she hates herself.They lost the Karstarks because Rickard Karstark wanted to kill POWs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Lion Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 they didn't need the freys until they lost the karstarks, and they lost the karstarks because of catelyn freeing jamie. she lost them the war and ultimately caused her son's death. this is the reason she is so full of hate in her zombie form. she hates herself.they'd have lost the karstarks anyway, as soon as karstark killed jaime robb would have killed him and we're back at the same problem. karstarks were a lost cause, they werent cat's fault.the freys were directly robb's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 Why do you want to group characters by their sex? They're all individuals.I absolutely agree. The best part of the story is being able to objectively view characters for their own nuances, merits, and dis-merits, imo.gender is a huge theme in the series imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 If only Robb didn't send Theon he'd still have the Freys.I dunno why Doran Martell didn't fight against the Lannisters or declare independence. There was no riper opportunity to fight against the Lannisters than in the beginning of WOTFK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 They lost the Karstarks because Rickard Karstark wanted to kill POWs....because cat freed jamiethey'd have lost the karstarks anyway, as soon as karstark killed jaime robb would have killed him and we're back at the same problem. karstarks were a lost cause, they werent cat's fault.the freys were directly robb's fault.i don't think so. the karstarks were fine not killing jamie for a long time before he was freed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkDragon Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 gender is a huge theme in the series imo.Well, in life. Edit: Btw odd fact, dinosaurs outlasted our own species, and the females were typically bigger and more dominant.Regardless, the 'are they stronger' might be viewed as negligible, to really need to argue whether or not they're stronger as a sex, rather than dealing with the fact some characters are unfathomably strong, and are female or male, or excessively weak and are male or female.i don't think so. the karstarks were fine not killing jamie for a long time before he was freed.Didn't they want him dead for quite a while? I grant you Cat releasing him stirred the kettle a little quicker, but it was going to be an issue soon or late, Jaime killed his sons, didn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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