are the female leads stronger characters than the males?

[gash]

It sure is comforting to know that people who are prevented from justifying rape due to the mods' restrictions on the forums find ways around it...

Domestic abuse everyone! and it's not just ok and justified... it's a sign of strength ;)

good job gash, you outdid yourself

what?? where have i justified rape??

you said euron raped vic's wife and another poster pointed out to you that there is no evidence for this.

i never said vic's beating of his wife was a sign of strength either. don't twist my posts.

and i would like an apology frankly.

[bbstark]

what?? where have i justified rape??

you said euron raped vic's wife and another poster pointed out to you that there is no evidence for this.

I was under the impression you were paying attention from the beginning.

My claim was that Victarion wasn't strong because he beat his wife; whether Euron actually raped his wife, or the sex was censensual is irrelevant.

So if you claim that he is stronger for beating her to death instead of killing his brother, AND that Victarion was THE STRONGEST character in ASOIAF, you are in fact claiming that that domestic abuse is a sign of strength.

[David Selig]

I'm sorry, but i'm going to have to ask you to show your work on #1.

Why is Victarion the strongest character, please? Please explain why after finding out his brother raped his wife, he murdered his wife, and why this is a sign of strength.

Be as elaborate as possible.

The list you quoted was based purely on the physical strength of the characters.

[the trees have eyes]

the whole thing is so ridiculous, especially considering where the discussion ends :lol:

(I'm not completely innocent, it was obviously a troll trap :devil: ... but whatever, I don't care, you do not throw domestic abuse in my face as a sign of strength... what's next? Aerys for husband of the year???)

Pretty sure the poster who took Victarion as #1 was talking about physical strength and was deliberately teasing as he knew very well what the OP was intending us to discuss. No one defended Victarion for murdering his wife and no one defended rape or marital abuse in any way so we shouldn't really go any further with that angle. We don't know the circumstances of Euron sleeping with Victarion's wife but for the record Vic's pov recollects Euron mocking him with "It seems that Victarion is big everywhere except where it counts". That is a clear attempt to belittle Victarion and it suggests a calculated attempt to undermine Victarion by seducing his wife and proving Euron's sexual superiority and therefore greater virility. It's ugly but it's a contest between two alpha males in which Euron sets out to establish dominance over Victarion. But imo the mocking reference also suggests consensual sex not rape.

[gash]

I was under the impression you were paying attention from the beginning.

My claim was that Victarion wasn't strong because he beat his wife; whether Euron actually raped his wife, or the sex was censensual is irrelevant.

So if you claim that he is stronger for beating her to death instead of killing his brother, AND that Victarion was THE STRONGEST character in ASOIAF, you are in fact claiming that that domestic abuse is a sign of strength.

you are way out of line dude.

first of all i never said he was the strongest character in ASOIAF. please show me where you think i said this? are you mixing me up with another poster?

secondly, i said that him stopping himself from killing euron because kinslaying is a sin was a sign of strength. this does not in any way mean i think beating women is a sign of strength. that was a horrible act. the two are not mutually exclusive.

again, you are well out of order.

[mrunderhill]

I was under the impression you were paying attention from the beginning.

My claim was that Victarion wasn't strong because he beat his wife; whether Euron actually raped his wife, or the sex was censensual is irrelevant.

So if you claim that he is stronger for beating her to death instead of killing his brother, AND that Victarion was THE STRONGEST character in ASOIAF, you are in fact claiming that that domestic abuse is a sign of strength.

This reasoning is terrible. Euron and Victarion's wife seemed to have a consensual affair. Victarion wanted to kill them both for the betrayal, but could not kill Euron, since that was against the laws of his god. So he killed his wife. I don't see how this makes him weak? It may make him a bad man, but not weak. TThe same way Tywin ordering the murders of babies or Cersei doing the same does not make them weak. If Ned ordered the murder of babies, then it would make him weak, since he was betraying his morals to take the easy way out. Killing Euron would not be an act of strength, because he would be going against his principals to satisfy his anger. However, at the same time not killing Euron was not a sign of strength either, because his primary reason for holding back seems to fear of the curse upon kinslayers.

[bbstark]

The list you quoted was based purely on the physical strength of the characters.

that is disappointing,

I was getting ready to tear him a new one (not physically) ;)

though, can we really even know the physical strength of characters? It seems unlikely that we could actually guess who's strongest :dunno:

[A Man Has Said]

they didn't need the freys until they lost the karstarks, and they lost the karstarks because of catelyn freeing jamie. she lost them the war and ultimately caused her son's death. this is the reason she is so full of hate in her zombie form. she hates herself.

OOooh, good one. This :agree: There is no hate stronger than that fueled by self-loathing.

[Florina Laufeyson]

No, he didn't, unless you're equating " having sex" to submission, in which case fuck you because I can't think of a Florinaism suitable for that level of whatthefuckery.

:lmao: A good one would be "i dont even know how to even anymore."

I don't know about what "strong" is. It can mean different things to different people.

At least the TV series passes the Bechdel Test:

http://faustusnotes....e-bechdel-test/

Bechdel Test is actually a shitty way to gauge a feminist ideal or equality in a work. Strawberry Shortcake television show passes and you wouldnt really call the characters in that work a shining example of equality and female greatness would you? Its a pet peeve of mine, peeps throwing the Bechdel Test around as if it actually sets a standard. You can pass that test in a work and it still being glaringly sexist.

[bbstark]

you are way out of line dude.

first of all i never said he was the strongest character in ASOIAF. please show me where you think i said this? are you mixing me up with another poster?

secondly, i said that him stopping himself from killing euron because kinslaying is a sin was a sign of strength. this does not in any way mean i think beating women is a sign of strength. that was a horrible act. the two are not mutually exclusive.

again, you are well out of order.

alright, I seem to have made the mistake assuming the poster meant mental strength, and the poster intended physical strength,

You did however defend Victarion's actions to not murder Euron, when I SPECIFICALLY talked about him killing his wife FIRST.

If you thought, as you clearly do, that one act does not wash out the other, that they are mutually exclusive, and that by no means this one act of strength earns him the #1 rank, you should have mentioned this straightaway.

I can't guess what's in your head

This roundabout could have been avoided.

[A Man Has Said]

Generally, I think it should be said that in a culture as thoroughly sexist as Westeros any woman who achieves one tenth as much as a man would starting out in the same social rank has to be given as much credit. Or, if she accomplishes as much, 10X the credit.

[gash]

alright, I seem to have made the mistake assuming the poster meant mental strength, and the poster intended physical strength,

You did however defend Victarion's actions to not murder Euron, when I SPECIFICALLY talked about him killing his wife FIRST.

If you thought, as you clearly do, that one act does not wash out the other, that they are mutually exclusive, and that by no means this one act of strength earns him the #1 rank, you should have mentioned this straightaway.

I can't guess what's in your head

This roundabout could have been avoided.

you are mixing me up with another poster. read back through the thread. someone else ranked vic as number 1. i didn't even make a list.

i was posting about a single act, vic not killing euron. you can't extrapolate that to me apologising for vic beating a woman to death. you just can't.

[bbstark]

you are mixing me up with another poster. read back through the thread. someone else ranked vic as number 1. i didn't even make a list.

i was posting about a single act, vic not killing euron. you can't extrapolate that to me apologising for vic beating a woman to death. you just can't.

I didn't extrapolate to you apologizing, I accused you of neglecting addressing my cruicial point. Which you did.

[gash]

I didn't extrapolate to you apologizing, I accused you of neglecting addressing my cruicial point. Which you did.

"you are in fact claiming that that domestic abuse is a sign of strength"

[A Man Has Said]

This reasoning is terrible. Euron and Victarion's wife seemed to have a consensual affair. Victarion wanted to kill them both for the betrayal, but could not kill Euron, since that was against the laws of his god. So he killed his wife. I don't see how this makes him weak? It may make him a bad man, but not weak. TThe same way Tywin ordering the murders of babies or Cersei doing the same does not make them weak. If Ned ordered the murder of babies, then it would make him weak, since he was betraying his morals to take the easy way out. Killing Euron would not be an act of strength, because he would be going against his principals to satisfy his anger. However, at the same time not killing Euron was not a sign of strength either, because his primary reason for holding back seems to fear of the curse upon kinslayers.

Really? Do we have any textual evidence that the prohibition against kinslaying didn't cover spouses? If true, that's fecked up.

[DISCLAIMER: Just because I posted ONE response to this ONE aspect, please don't think I want to get involved in the 'domestic abuse' aspect of this thread. :uhoh: ]

[mrunderhill]

Really? Do we have any textual evidence that the prohibition against kinslaying didn't cover spouses? If true, that's fecked up.

[DISCLAIMER: Just because I posted ONE response to this ONE aspect, please don't think I want to get involved in the 'domestic abuse' aspect of this thread. :uhoh: ]

As said before the only thing, which stopped him killing Euron was the fear/rule against being a kinslayer otherwise he would have. There is no evidence, but a lot of people have killed their spouse and nobody calls them a kinslayer, The Mountain and Ramsay are two of them. With Kinslaying it seems that it is the blood that matters.