indignant mushroom Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Exactly.It isn't a justified punishment for her crimes, it's a way to demean and to degrade her as a woman, not necessarily as a criminal.Pretty much, yeah. IIRC she only confessed to having sex out of marriage, which makes it worse.She'll probably pay for her other atrocities with her life, or her throne, or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Walrus Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Exactly.It isn't a justified punishment for her crimes, it's a way to demean and to degrade her as a woman, not necessarily as a criminal.Which plays into Martin's point of turning revenge fantaises on their head in Dance. He knew how much people loathed Theon and Cersei, and cleverly wrote their punishment's to both disgust the reader, as in Theon's case, and to disappoint readers, thus explaining Cersei's walk of shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 See, what you're doing here is breaking at least 3 or 4 rules of logical debate.I'd like to redirect the topic of conversation to: Cersei didn't deserve the sexual assault that the High Septon graced upon her. My response was geared towards your blanket statement "Two wrongs don't make a right." Trying to discover if you believe murder and torture are 'wrongs.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illrede Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Pretty much, yeah. IIRC she only confessed to having sex out of marriage, which makes it worse.She'll probably pay for her other atrocities with her life, or her throne, or both.Or she got away with it clean because the Faith couldn't conceive her as the most dangerous person in Westeros and punished the depraved woman she had to have been. And here she is ready for another round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Its called strawmanning.And yes youre right. Despite my own manic cackling during that chapter, when it was made clear WHY she was doing the Walk, i stopped laughing. The point many people seem to miss is that the Walk wasnt a punishment for all the crimes she committed. The Walk happened because, well, the Faith seems to hate women.Exactly.It isn't a justified punishment for her crimes, it's a way to demean and to degrade her as a woman, not necessarily as a criminal. It's always been clear to me that the punishers in this instance were not punishing Cersei for her actual crimes of murder. That's old ground I've already covered. There are lots of instances in ASOIAF of justice coming to characters from sources who weren't wronged by them and for reasons not related to why it's justice. Why should this circumstance be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Flashheart Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 My response was geared towards your blanket statement "Two wrongs don't make a right." Trying to discover if you believe murder and torture are 'wrongs.'is that really up for debate? Of course they are 'wrongs' the point for example is that raping a rapist isn't justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 What does this have to do with revenge fantasy? We're discussing what's specifically included in the text of ASOIAF, surely that sort of talk is not prohibited on a forum created to discuss ASOIAF.I still don't understand what's wrong with a villainous person being degraded and humiliated. I don't see any protests over any other characters who have suffered similar. Amory Lorch was degraded and humiliated when fed to the bear naked. Tywin Lannister was horribly degraded being shot on the shitter with a whore in his bed. The wineseller who tried to poison Dany died a degrading, miserable death...Because it wasn't a punishment for her crimes, it was punishment for women a woman. If it was a justified punishment for her crimes in a way that wasn't obviously just a ''Hah! look at this dumb woman!'' then I would not have such a problem with it. I don't necessarily think anyone is required to feel sorry for her in this instance, but many are, and it makes sense why.I think, like Florina said, people don't really understand this wasn't a punishment for all the shit she's done, I would be far less disturbed if she was just executed for her crimes, even though outside of fantasy literature I'm vehemently anti-capital punishment, because in this universe she deserve that punishment, but I'm very, very uncomfortable with relishing in such a horrible, demeaning and misogynistic punishment that wasn't even for all of her crimes. I also didn't relish in all of the deaths you mentioned, I thought those were horrible deaths too. I didn't relate to them and feel as much sympathy for them but I didn't get some sort of strange sense of glee as if they were ''justified'' in anyway. Better a quick death than torture of any kind. Don't mistake my distaste for the walk of Shame as praise for Cersei as a whole, I love her as a character, not as a person, those Qyburn victims are disgusting examples of how cruel and evil she can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 It's always been clear to me that the punishers in this instance were not punishing Cersei for her actual crimes of murder. That's old ground I've already covered. There are lots of instances in ASOIAF of justice coming to characters from sources who weren't wronged by them and for reasons not related to why it's justice. Why should this circumstance be any different?Is it really justice then? I want Cersei to get punished severely for all of her crimes, but the Walk of Shame, while I somewhat enjoyed it, was not truly justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indignant mushroom Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 My response was geared towards your blanket statement "Two wrongs don't make a right." Trying to discover if you believe murder and torture are 'wrongs.'Like I'd tell you? It's really an absurd request; you aren't entitled to my personal morality.Which plays into Martin's point of turning revenge fantaises on their head in Dance. He knew how much people loathed Theon and Cersei, and cleverly wrote their punishment's to both disgust the reader, as in Theon's case, and to disappoint readers, thus explaining Cersei's walk of shame.I was pretty disgusted at both tbh. I actually skipped both my second re-read.It sort of puts the reader in a situation where they hate a character, but then feel bad for them at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Which plays into Martin's point of turning revenge fantaises on their head in Dance. He knew how much people loathed Theon and Cersei, and cleverly wrote their punishment's to both disgust the reader, as in Theon's case, and to disappoint readers, thus explaining Cersei's walk of shame.Oh, as a piece of writing it was extraordinarily clever and powerful, but as for people thinking it was some sort of triumph of justice, it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Is it really justice then? I want Cersei to get punished severely for all of her crimes, but the Walk of Shame, while I somewhat enjoyed it, was not truly justice. I don't know, it depends on your definition of justice, doesn't it? Look at Vargo Hoat, for example. Would you say he got what he deserved? After maiming and killing a bunch of smallfolk and indirectly taking Jaime's hand, he gets his ear bitten off by Brienne and then slowly cut to bits by the Mountain. Neither of these punishments were inflicted on him for his greatest atrocities of killing all the smallfolk and torturing people, yet surely it could fit some definition of justice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Like I'd tell you? It's really an absurd request; you aren't entitled to my personal morality. How is it an absurd request if you've already shared your personal morality as part of this discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Walrus Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Oh, as a piece of writing it was extraordinarily clever and powerful, but as for people thinking it was some sort of triumph of justice, it wasn't.Very much so, and that is my point essentially. Martin took the readers wanting for vengeance, and cleverly subverted it into something completely different. You go from having this intense hatred of a character, to thinking to yourself, "Was what i wanted to happen to him/her really justice?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I don't know, it depends on your definition of justice, doesn't it? Look at Vargo Hoat, for example. Would you say he got what he deserved? After maiming and killing a bunch of smallfolk and indirectly taking Jaime's hand, he gets his ear bitten off by Brienne and then slowly cut to bits by the Mountain. Neither of these punishments were inflicted on him for his greatest atrocities of killing all the smallfolk and torturing people, yet surely it could fit some definition of justice...I didn't really feel any sort of justice at that either. I would feel more justice if someone was tried for their crimes, found guilty and then executed or punished accordingly. All these nasty, disgusting deaths and acts of torture really don't leave a nice feeling of justice in my stomach. But that's just me. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I don't see the big fuss about Cersei's punishment at all. It's hardly the worst punishment to be handed out in the world. Let's stop acting like the High Septon is being a misogynist. The Kettleblacks got much worse punishments. Osney was severely whipped for confessing to sleeping with th Queen, whilst his two brothers are being sent to the wall. It's crazy to compare what Cersei went through to what happened to Theon.Cersei is a very interesting character and one of my favourite POV's. She is not the most reliable narrator though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I don't know, it depends on your definition of justice, doesn't it? Look at Vargo Hoat, for example. Would you say he got what he deserved? After maiming and killing a bunch of smallfolk and indirectly taking Jaime's hand, he gets his ear bitten off by Brienne and then slowly cut to bits by the Mountain. Neither of these punishments were inflicted on him for his greatest atrocities of killing all the smallfolk and torturing people, yet surely it could fit some definition of justice...Personally, I think that justice is rather subjective, so I guess it can be argued that these examples were just. But I think that there is a distinction, or that there should be, between someone 'deserving' something and justice.ETA: Though I'm not quite sure on what this distinction is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illrede Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 It sort of puts the reader in a situation where they hate a character, but then feel bad for them at the same time.Yes, that would be your human-empathy kicking in. Cersei doesn't have that wiring hooked up. Bear in mind there are women dying screaming in dungeons on her orders right at that moment to further her power, or possible just for the heck of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Flashheart Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Oh, as a piece of writing it was extraordinarily clever and powerful, but as for people thinking it was some sort of triumph of justice, it wasn't.I can agree with this wholeheartedly. Justice is a word that has a very specific meaning. People seem to be confusing Justice with Revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I don't see the big fuss about Cersei's punishment at all. It's hardly the worst punishment to be handed out in the world. Let's stop acting like the High Septon is being a misogynist. The Kettleblacks got much worse punishments. Osney was severely whipped for confessing to sleeping with th Queen, whilst his two brothers are being sent to the wall. It's crazy to compare what Cersei went through to what happened to Theon.Cersei is a very interesting character and one of my favourite POV's. She is not the most reliable narrator though.Who said what she's suffered is worse than Theon's and what she's suffered is worse that the Kettlebacks? Personally I find this barteri9ng of what sort of torture or death is worse in pretty damn poor taste and entirely pointless. It doesn't matter if something was ''better'' or ''worse'', a certain scene can still stand on its own merit, and the Walk of Shame is a horrible, degrading punishment in itself. Why do people feel the need to compare and contrast horrible acts all the time. They're all horrible, end of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I can agree with this wholeheartedly. Justice is a word that has a very specific meaning. People seem to be confusing Justice with Revenge.They are different though sometimes they can ultimately result in the same thing. Executing for a murder is both justice and revenge. The same with gelding/execution for rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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