Cersei in AFFC

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

If a punishment is only applied to a woman and is a direct assault on her gender, it's misogynistic. Osney Kettleblack's punishment is not misandry. It's classism. He had an affair with somebody above his station. He lied about an affair with somebody above his station. That was what he was being punished for. He would have never been punished for having an affair with a servant or visiting a brothel. Maybe women readers understand this more. I've been harassed walking down the street while fully clothed more times than I can count (or maybe I'm just an immoral slattern for wearing a tank top in 90 degree weather?) It feels awful in a way I can never get even the most enlightened men to understand.

Cersei absolutely deserves punishment for her crimes (not having sex, actual violent crimes). She is deplorable and has done too many

unforgivable things. Jail, a clean execution, maybe exile would be appropriate. It makes me sad that Tommen and Myrcella will likely pay for what their elders have done.

Still, she is somebody to pitied. Her misogyny is something other than purely hypocritical, it is self loathing. Same goes for her narcissism. It's a false bravado to cover up her paranoia and insecurity. Her fears that her femininity does make her inferior. She has to lie to herself to maintain the shreds of sanity she is hanging on to. It's actually very sad.

The ambivalence I feel towards Cersei is what makes her chapters some of my favorites. She is probably the most challenging character in the series. It is difficult to comprehend why some people hated AFFC because these chapters are so fascinating. In my opinion anyway.

[illrede]

:agree: 100%.

Her "punishment" was not fitting of the Queen. It was 100% the HS's way of knocking her down a few pegs since he feels she's too high and mighty. The KB's punishment was in private. Hers was to be paraded in front of the people she's supposed to help lead and to take away power. It was akin to rape, it was a sexual assault, and it was wrong.

The High Septon was given the power to remove a popular and innocent queen, in order to remove a popular and innocent queen. By Cersei.

Being hoist on your own petard is not wrong. This is taking empathy and sympathy to the point of ridicuousness.

[The-Paul-Arron00]

Cerceis "negotiations" were her crowning moment of when she became the queen of special people. She let the faith militarize; that was sincerely the dumbest thing she did in her reign and everyone will continue to see why

[SeanF]

If a punishment is only applied to a woman and is a direct assault on her gender, it's misogynistic. Osney Kettleblack's punishment is not misandry. It's classism. He had an affair with somebody above his station. He lied about an affair with somebody above his station. That was what he was being punished for. He would have never been punished for having an affair with a servant or visiting a brothel. Maybe women readers understand this more. I've been harassed walking down the street while fully clothed more times than I can count (or maybe I'm just an immoral slattern for wearing a tank top in 90 degree weather?) It feels awful in a way I can never get even the most enlightened men to understand

That's humiliating enough for Cersei. What makes it a hundred times worse for her is that she's a Queen, and the Lady of Casterly Rock, having to endure being jeered and pelted with filth, by the Smallfolk.

[IRON BANK]

Inside the mind of a narcissist. The closest she comes to having a conscious is not wanting to think about the people she sends to Qyburn.

Exactly: There was a study done this year on college graduates over 1/2 suffered from a mild case of narcissism. Cersie is far beyond that. Her relationships with family and lovers. The way she justifies mistakes to the point where she cannot see them. Even after she is freed from the Seven she still thinks she can regain power ridiculous.

[SeanF]

:lol: Good point. She'd be first in line to hurl shit at Margery if she was Walking in Shame, as Cersei intended.

Her intention was that Margaery should be executed. She's right to distrust Margaery and her family, but her plot against her was hare-brained.

[SeanF]

I've had to completely remove myself from our own modern "refined" society to get emotionally invested in ASOIAF because they don't play by our rules. From my perspective, both the Walk of Shame and Hoat's dismemberment were justice based on their rules. These characters are not going to learn or repent, certainly not within the fictional confines of Martin's work. So I find it satisfactory to see them take a deserved beating, regardless of the source or the reasons for it. It doesn't mean I view the High Sparrow as a good guy now, in fact, he's another one who could use some justice.

Would I personally have ordered Cersei publically humiliated or Hoat's slow death if I were just teleported into that world? No. But based on the rules we're dealing with in a world frustratingly out of our control, I am

happy to take what I can get. There's so much blatant INjustice that goes on, it's nice when the bad guys get theirs.

Actually, I think that Cersei's treatment is highly unusual - at least by the normal standards of her world. An unmarried noblewoman who takes lovers might destroy her reputation, but would never expect this sort of treatment. It's a sign of how normal standards are breaking down in Westeros.

[Sansa_Stark]

Actually, I think that Cersei's treatment is highly unusual - at least by the normal standards of her world. An unmarried noblewoman who takes lovers might destroy her reputation, but would never expect this sort of treatment. It's a sign of how normal standards are breaking down in Westeros.

Ser. Lucamore. Castrated. Exact. Same. Reason.

[Blueberry Stark]

The High Septon was given the power to remove a popular and innocent queen, in order to remove a popular and innocent queen. By Cersei.

Being hoist on your own petard is not wrong. This is taking empathy and sympathy to the point of ridicuousness.

It's true that Cersei allowed the HS this power in order to destroy Margaery; I can somewhat see how someone would deem this to be a fitting punishment for Cersei since it is one that she intended to inflict upon another woman. And yes, she would have reveled in Margaery's humiliation. Cersei is an asshole. However, for me and apparently many readers this was an exceedingly difficult chapter to read because I truly felt Cersei's pain. It was agonizing to go through that walk with her, from her early resolve to maintain her pride, all the way through to her eventual loss of pride. It honestly made me root for and sympathize with Cersei in a way that I thought was completely impossible. Truly beautiful writing from Martin.

My problem with many people saying that Cersei got what she deserves is that I really view this punishment as a form of rape. Reading this chapter was as disturbing to me as reading a rape scene. I don't condone rape or any form of sexual assault as a type of punishment.

[Blueberry Stark]

Ser. Lucamore. Castrated. Exact. Same. Reason.

The castration was the result of fathering so many children and breaking his Night's Watch vows. The poster was saying that the Walk of Shame was an unusual punishment for a noble woman who has lovers outside of wedlock, thus it's not analogous.

[DaveRoid]

Karma is a bitch. Cersie got exactly what she intended for margary, the faith would have done the same thing to her or worse if she admitted to adultery under duress.

People forget that adultery was outlawed in most places in the modern world even 50-100 years ago and often than not the sentence would be death. For men and women who committed it though because men generally had power they would more often than not get away with it.

She got off far easier than what she deserved, and now with Robert strong she will continue to engulf the realm in madness and death. Varys made sure of that at the end of DWD.

[Sansa_Stark]

The castration was the result of fathering so many children and breaking his Night's Watch vows. The poster was saying that the Walk of Shame was an unusual punishment for a noble woman who has lovers outside of wedlock, thus it's not analogous.

What are you saying then? That Cersei's punishment was this horrible thing while Lucamore's was acceptable? It is the same thing. Not all members of the guard were punished for breaking their vows. Not all noblewomen are the queen. She has a bigger duty than they do

[The Prince of Newcastle]

So you're against justice of any kind? "Two wrongs don't make a right"? I guess you'd argue the Tickler didn't deserve to be stabbed to death because 2 wrongs don't make a right, then?

No one deserves to be sexually assaulted. What a disgusting thing to say.

[Queen Daenerys]

No one deserves to be sexually assaulted. What a disgusting thing to say.

Exactly. What made it so disturbing to read for me is that I felt like I was witnessing a rape. I could never rejoice to see a woman (no matter how many evil things she did) being sexually assaulted. So even if the walk of shame was a punishment for, say, sending people to Qyburn, I wouldn't accept it, as I wouldn't accept rape as a punishment. To those who say that she wasn't tortured or beaten so it's not that bad, psychological violence exists, and I wouldn't call it "better" than being beaten. That's why I find Cersei and Theon's "punishments" to be so hard to read, because it involves psychological violence and humiliation.

[mrunderhill]

Actually, I think that Cersei's treatment is highly unusual - at least by the normal standards of her world. An unmarried noblewoman who takes lovers might destroy her reputation, but would never expect this sort of treatment. It's a sign of how normal standards are breaking down in Westeros.

Cersei is not being punished in isolation. The High Septon believes she is guilty for numerous crimes including treason, regicide and decide. Do you think if she had not done these crimes the High Septon would be so quick to punish her to such an extent? Everyone believes she is as guilty as hell for those crimes. You cannot isolate this punishment from the many others the High Septon believes she is guilty of. In a normal case her penance would either involve hard physical labour or being whipped as well as a public confession.

Secondly just look up at medieval punishments. Being paraded naked happened to lots of men.

The much bigger issue at hand here seems to be that Cersei and others were punished for sex outside the marriage.

EDIT

Being dragged through the city naked was part of the shame and punishment for most treasons, except in the end you lost your head.

[SeanF]

Cersei is not being punished in isolation. The High Septon believes she is guilty for numerous crimes including treason, regicide and decide. Do you think if she had not done these crimes the High Septon would be so quick to punish her to such an extent? Everyone believes she is as guilty as hell for those crimes. You cannot isolate this punishment from the many others the High Septon believes she is guilty of. In a normal case her penance would either involve hard physical labour or being whipped as well as a public confession.

Secondly just look up at medieval punishments. Being paraded naked happened to lots of men.

The much bigger issue at hand here seems to be that Cersei and others were punished for sex outside the marriage.

EDIT

Being dragged through the city naked was part of the shame and punishment for most treasons, except in the end you lost your head.

It was certainly common for men who weren't aristocratic, and who had been found guilty of capital crimes, to be stripped naked prior to execution. It was virtually unheard of for an aristocratic woman to be treated in that way. And, Cersei hasn't even been found guilty of any capital crime. It's debateable whether non-adulterous sex is a crime in any case.

[mrunderhill]

It was certainly common for men who weren't aristocratic, and who had been found guilty of capital crimes, to be stripped naked prior to execution. It was virtually unheard of for an aristocratic woman to be treated in that way. And, Cersei hasn't even been found guilty of any capital crime. It's debateable whether non-adulterous sex is a crime in any case.

This crime is not in isolation, though which people need to remember. I said it before, but if Cersei had just been caught sleeping with the Osney or Lancel, she may have been given a choice of a some private punishment. The High Septon does not seem to be a hypocrite. He has himself flogged for his lapses.

She has not been found guilty of the crimes, but everyone believes she is guilty. She is only going to escape by a trial of combat. The evidence is pretty strong. She got a far, far harsher punishment than usual, because they probably won't be able to convict her for the more serious ones they are confidant she is guilty of.

[SeanF]

Karma is a bitch. Cersie got exactly what she intended for margary, the faith would have done the same thing to her or worse if she admitted to adultery under duress.

People forget that adultery was outlawed in most places in the modern world even 50-100 years ago and often than not the sentence would be death. For men and women who committed it though because men generally had power they would more often than not get away with it.

She got off far easier than what she deserved, and now with Robert strong she will continue to engulf the realm in madness and death. Varys made sure of that at the end of DWD.

Adultery was generally a civil, rather than a criminal, offence in Western countries. It was called "criminal conversation."

[Blueberry Stark]

What are you saying then? That Cersei's punishment was this horrible thing while Lucamore's was acceptable? It is the same thing. Not all members of the guard were punished for breaking their vows. Not all noblewomen are the queen. She has a bigger duty than they do

What I said was completely clear. Ser. Lucamore. Was. Castrated. For. Breaking. His. Vows. That's not the same as the Walk of Shame, which is a form of sexual assault ostensibly inflicted on Cersei for having sex outside of marriage. There's nothing "acceptable" about either punishment, and I clearly never suggested that castration is acceptable for breaking vows. They are both human rights violations, and that is the main way in which they are analogous. The reason for being sentenced to these punishments are not analogous. I feel like we're splitting hairs here, and I wouldn't have even responded to your post if it hadn't been put so snidely, "Ser. Lucamore. Castrated. Exact. Same. Reason." No, you're wrong. If you want to compare these two punishments I think you need to start a new thread.

[illrede]

It's true that Cersei allowed the HS this power in order to destroy Margaery; I can somewhat see how someone would deem this to be a fitting punishment for Cersei since it is one that she intended to inflict upon another woman. And yes, she would have reveled in Margaery's humiliation.

Death.

My problem with many people saying that Cersei got what she deserves is that I really view this punishment as a form of rape. Reading this chapter was as disturbing to me as reading a rape scene. I don't condone rape or any form of sexual assault as a type of punishment.

It's clearly public humiliation. "Really gut-wrenching and personally identifying public humiliation" can't make it rape. She was frog marched naked through the streets. The people said mean things and threw filth at her. Eventually she realized this meant they'd never respect or fear her again.

If only.