Cersei in AFFC

[Sansa_Stark]

Of course it is. Clothes are hardly going to make much difference when you are being dragged around by a horse for miles and miles. Sexual humiliation has played a part in many punishments. Cersei is just lucky she had none of the psychical punishments that go along with it.

Another example if Amory Lorch.

And that evening, a page named Nan poured wine for Roose Bolton and Vargo Hoat as they stood on the gallery, watching the Brave Companions parade Ser Amory Lorch naked through the middle ward. Ser Amory pleaded and sobbed and clung to the legs of his captors, until Rorge pulled him loose, and Shagwell kicked him down into the bear pit.

Just another of the very, very many examples of such happening.

They only took his clothes off because the bear might not be able to claw through it. It had nothing to do with sexual humiliation. Lol

[Rahgh Neqaj]

Well, don't get your knickers all tied up. The High Septon knew that Cersei has done much more wrong than just sleeping around. And you can object to the laws they had in those times all you want, but your opinion is one of this era, the current. Saying that she deserved it, means that she broke the laws that she knew she had to obey, therefore she deserverd the punishment.

[...]

It is one thing whether we make an argument based on knowledge that we as readers have and that the actors of a story (medieval history) did not have or whether we talk about moral aspects. People may, at a point in time, not have developed appropriate understanding of a finer aspect of a general moral case but that doesn't make their actions morally acceptable, it doesn't excuse or justify the bad deed. It just puts the bad deed in relation to its time. And I'm pretty sure that even for Westerosi standards, the walk of shame was a massive violation of the existing moral code and the high septon only got away with it for two reasons: a) the sum of Cersei's real crimes and b ) because the majority of Westeros had just decided to give up on morals alltogether. (Replacing morals with the fight to survive, creating a hyper-aggressive environment.)

Following your point about the law: Do you think that the guys (I'm thiinking primarily of Georg Elser and, later, the Stauffenberg group) who tried to blow up Hitler deserved their punishment for breaking the law? Pardons exist exactly for the cases where the law is only legal but not just. In this special case, Cersei certainly deserved to be punished for a lot of things but having extra-marital affairs is none of them and while she was sitting in her cell in Baelor's Sept the High Septon was the high and mighty misogynist who, on the fly, invented a new and cruel form of punishment, bending the law to his mysoginist believes.

[Blueberry Stark]

You do realize that the smallfolk reacted similarly during the riot right? Most of them aren't hating on Cersei because she is a "whore" but because of the terrible things the Lannisters have done. Hell, even one actual whore started to insult her at one point. Most of them don't actual care about charge, they just want to hurt Cersei. No one is punishing the smallfolk brothel workers from what we have seen.

The smallfolk don't hate her because they think that she's a whore. Sure, you're right, they hate her for being a Lannister. My point is that she's being punished for the "crime" of having sex outside of marriage. IIRC, the septa escorting her claims that she has committed falsehoods and fornications, so she is ostensibly being punished for lying and having sex.

[Sansa_Stark]

The smallfolk don't hate her because they think that she's a whore. Sure, you're right, they hate her for being a Lannister. My point is that she's being punished for the "crime" of having sex outside of marriage. IIRC, the septa escorting her claims that she has committed falsehoods and fornications, so she is ostensibly being punished for lying and having sex.

I think that is what is being advertised and is being done to shame her worse. Likely there are politics in not advertising Cersei's real crimes. Mrunderhill makes good points.

[Blueberry Stark]

When people commit crimes, they deserve to be punished. It is as simple as that. Means of carrying out the punishment, is a whole new discussion. I don't see how the Walk of Shame is so much worse than any other severe punishment she could have gotten, just because she is a woman.

So you would suggest Hitler being locked up for life without parole and that's it? Or, because he is a man, can he suffer a painfull death? Should he be allowed a human-punishment?

If you start about countries where women are being stoned to death, I'll play the Hitler-card.

Oh no, not the Hitler card!!! I've been put in my place.

We've been discussing a woman being punished for having sex, hence the analogy comparing the WoS to the modern-day practice, in some countries, of stoning women to death for adultery. I think that the WoS punishment would be equally horrible if it was a man subjected to it. For the record, I'm against anyone being tortured or sexually humiliated and/or assaulted no matter what his or her crimes may be. Even Hitler.

Lastly, this entire discussion, at least the one that I've been engaging in, has been about how I don't think that the means in which Cersei's punishment has been carried out is acceptable. I'll allow that it's not the worst punishment that we've seen in the books, and that Cersei does deserve to be punished, but I don't agree that she deserved the WoS.

[illrede]

Yes, this topic has been beaten to death at this point. It's obvious to me that some people feel that sexualized humiliation is an acceptable form of punishment. Even though Cersei's crimes are horrible, and she is directly responsible for unleashing the monster Qyburn on KL, I still can't condone this type of punishment.

I hope that Cersei gets her revenge on the HS before her inevitable terrible end (whether she actually dies or survives the end of the series, I don't see any way in which Cersei will have a "happy" ending).

Do you remember the Simpson's episode that was a pastiche of Pulp Fiction? If so, a certain thing happened to the Nelson Muntz character in it- made to shuffle along in front of a car with his pants around his ankles while the town lines up and laughed at him. It is equally possible that people think an uncomedic and extreme variety of that is what happened to Cersei, and people that disagree with them are trying to sensationalize them into thinking something else.

[Blueberry Stark]

I think that is what is being advertised and is being done to shame her worse. Likely there are politics in not advertising Cersei's real crimes. Mrunderhill makes good points.

Yes, he/she does. I agree that HS is punishing her for all of her various crimes; however, I think that the general population is being told that she's receiving this harsh punishment for fabrication and fornication.

[butterbumps!]

I realize that I'm late to this party, but I read the full thread and think it's sort of weird to not consider the WoS as a highly sexualized punishment.

We see a number of characters get stripped as a form of punishment in the series. To add to the example of the wineseller paraded behind Dany's horse and Lorch in the pit, there is also the case of Sam, who was stripped by his father and paraded naked in the castle as a means of humiliating him into becoming a man, and the way Roose had Pia stripped and stockaded at Herrenhal so that any man could rape her at their pleasure.

In all of these cases, the stripping naked is a form of humiliation. Wrt the wineseller and Lorch, the humiliation is indirectly sexual, that is, they objective wasn't to harass these men sexually, only to add further humiliation to degrade them further.

With Sam, Pia and Cersei, their naked punishments do, in fact, take on a very sexual tone. Sam is stripped to shame him, exposing his weak "feminine" leanings to bully him into becoming a manly man.

Yet, what's missing from Sam's punishment, but present in Cersei and Pia's, are 2 important factors: 1. they are being punished for sexual crimes, which are considered crimes only because they are women, and 2. their naked punishments carry heavy undertones of sexual assault.

The case of Pia's sexualized punishment (for sleeping with Lannister men) is self-evident: she is literally chained up naked and raped repeatedly for her "crime" of having intercourse with the enemy army.

With Cersei, the sexual threat is implicit. First, the problem is that she is being punished for sex while a widow; she is not being punished for cheating on Robert, but rather, she is found guilty of the crime of having intercourse after Robert died. This is a huge problem. Next, she is forced to surrender her body to be shaved for display. This is a direct violation of her body. Then, she is put on display, naked, for the entire city to see, for no reason other than the fact that she had sex out of wedlock. It's a fetishized punishment, objectifying Cersei as a "slut," meant to humiliate her by exposing her body, vulnerable to every eye.

As Elaena Targaryen already pointed out in her excellent post, the threat of rape and physical violation is utterly implicit. The crowd calls out sexual slurs, but there's more than that. The High Septon is showing her that she is at his utmost mercy. The message he is sending is clear: "I could let the city rape you to high heaven. It is only by virtue of my allowing the guards to hold this crowd that you are safe." It's a shrewd power play on his part, showing her that he is the one in control of her body.

This is why the WoS is the definition of "sexualized punishment," and why I find it offensive despite the fact that I think Cersei does deserve punishment. Cersei is guilty of many crimes, none of which she was actually punished for. The one thing Cersei did that ought not be a crime (having sex after Robert's death) is the one thing she's actually being punished for. And she's being punished in a sexually humiliating way.

Though I want to see Cersei brought to justice for her many enormities, the WoS brought me no satisfaction. It punished her for a crime that isn't worthy of being called a crime. The Walk has nothing to do with the genuinely atrocious list of enormities Cersei has racked up. And it was offensively misogynistic in every facet. She deserves the guillotine, not threatened and humiliated sexually.

[Dany Girl]

When people commit crimes, they deserve to be punished. It is as simple as that. Means of carrying out the punishment, is a whole new discussion. I don't see how the Walk of Shame is so much worse than any other severe punishment she could have gotten, just because she is a woman.

So you would suggest Hitler being locked up for life without parole and that's it? Or, because he is a man, can he suffer a painfull death? Should he be allowed a human-punishment?

If you start about countries where women are being stoned to death, I'll play the Hitler-card.

because somehow having sex without being married is akin to killing thousands of people?!? Bull shit! Even though the HS suspects her of having committed other crimes, the only one she is being punished for is having sex outside of marriage. The HS has no proof of the twincest, just the rumors spread by Stannis. For all he knows they are just rumors meant to undermine her children's legitimacy to press his claim. Everything else is also speculation at this point.

anytime anyone is sexually humiliated I take offense to it. Cersei is going to stand trial regarding her crimes. Sex outside marriage is not a crime though. If it was, every whore in KL would be paraded through town on a regular basis.

Tytos's mistress, if you want a comparison, is the only other time we've seen or heard about this type of punishment. It was done by Tywin strictly to get revenge and to teach her her place in life. It was also wrong. Treating any woman, or any person, like a piece of meat is wrong. I would have been much happier with a normal form of punishment. Sexual humiliation is never right to me.

Anybody who thinks it is ok to sexually humiliate anybody, I am seriously concerned about your morality IRL.

[Sansa_Stark]

because somehow having sex without being married is akin to killing thousands of people?!? Bull shit! Even though the HS suspects her of having committed other crimes, the only one she is being punished for is having sex outside of marriage. The HS has no proof of the twincest, just the rumors spread by Stannis. For all he knows they are just rumors meant to undermine her children's legitimacy to press his claim. Everything else is also speculation at this point.

I would say that from the HS POV, little of these things are actually speculation.

I mean, Cersei's cousin was the one to rat her out and accuse of her of killing Bobert.

And from a second source he has(one that is known for being very close to Cersei) he is told that she ordered the death of a previous HS and the shame of Maergary.

This is really damning evidence even if the HS is trying to look away to keep the faith in power.

[SeanF]

Yes, he/she does. I agree that HS is punishing her for all of her various crimes; however, I think that the general population is being told that she's receiving this harsh punishment for fabrication and fornication.

The inhabitants of King's Landing have good reason to hate the Lannisters, even though Cersei hasn't done them any injury herself. But, unless she was really loved by the people, I think the mob would enjoy seeing any noblewoman degraded in this way.

[Sansa_Stark]

The inhabitants of King's Landing have good reason to hate the Lannisters, even though Cersei hasn't done them any injury herself. But, unless she was really loved by the people, I think the mob would enjoy seeing any noblewoman degraded in this way.

Cersei threatened to have the hands of all the smiths broken if they didn't make enough equipment for the gold cloaks, and didn't she have the hands removed from all the puppet show people?

She may not have personally injured them, but according to Jacelyn Bywater "The queen has never been known to be a friend to the commons" or something of the sort and that the king had "evil councilors"

Aside from that, she did make her father Tywin her hand, so she is basically condoning the sack which brought a lot of harm to the people of KLs.

Lets not forget many believe the war is Cersei's fault and that they believe the lack of food was her fault as well(which caused mass starvation in KL)

[WhiteWalder]

We see a number of characters get stripped as a form of punishment in the series. To add to the example of the wineseller paraded behind Dany's horse and Lorch in the pit, there is also the case of Sam, who was stripped by his father and paraded naked in the castle as a means of humiliating him into becoming a man, and the way Roose had Pia stripped and stockaded at Herrenhal so that any man could rape her at their pleasure.

In all of these cases, the stripping naked is a form of humiliation. Wrt the wineseller and Lorch, the humiliation is indirectly sexual, that is, they objective wasn't to harass these men sexually, only to add further humiliation to degrade them further.

Yet, another example of how GRRM takes things that one holds most dear, or that is their best quality, and strips it away.(pun intended) One of Cersei's best qualities is her beauty, and mainly, her desirability. She brings meaning to the cliché "I would kill to get in her pants."

He desirability and ability to use it is taken away during the WoS.

[Dany Girl]

I would say that from the HS POV, little of these things are actually speculation.

I mean, Cersei's cousin was the one to rat her out and accuse of her of killing Bobert.

And from a second source he has(one that is known for being very close to Cersei) he is told that she ordered the death of a previous HS and the shame of Maergary.

This is really damning evidence even if the HS is trying to look away to keep the faith in power.

but again, these are not the crimes she is being punished for. The small folk are told she is being punished for having sex outside marriage. Whatever occurred in private between Cersei and the HS none of the people that are involved in the punishment know the "real" reason for it. Therefore it is setting a very dangerous president.

Even if the HS thinks he knows what's up, all he has it the word of Lancel who is clearly distraught in his confession, and Cersei who can easily deny the charges brought on by Lancel. OKB's confession is brought during torture, therefore not really all that reliable. Many many non jews confessed to being jews during the Spanish Inquisition because they were being tortured. Torturing someone and asking them pointed questions looking for a specific response is not a reliable way to get the truth.

Again, Cersei is going to stand trial for her real crimes, the walk is just a way to humiliate her for being a "slut". It was a way for the HS to say, "look what I can do to you, and you can't do a damn thing about it." It was a power play to show dominance and nothing more.

[WildBlood]

This is why the WoS is the definition of "sexualized punishment," and why I find it offensive despite the fact that I think Cersei does deserve punishment. Cersei is guilty of many crimes, none of which she was actually punished for. The one thing Cersei did that ought not be a crime (having sex after Robert's death) is the one thing she's actually being punished for. And she's being punished in a sexually humiliating way.

Though I want to see Cersei brought to justice for her many enormities, the WoS brought me no satisfaction. It punished her for a crime that isn't worthy of being called a crime. The Walk has nothing to do with the genuinely atrocious list of enormities Cersei has racked up. And it was offensively misogynistic in every facet. She deserves the guillotine, not threatened and humiliated sexually.

Cersei confessed to extra-marital affairs... Which is to cheat on your husband. Her's was the king. So it is more than having sex after Robert died.

[SeanF]

Cersei confessed to extra-marital affairs... Which is to cheat on your husband. Her's was the king. So it is more than having sex after Robert died.

She confessed only to sex after Robert's death. She'd have been confessing to a capital crime, if she'd admitted adultery.

[Sansa_Stark]

but again, these are not the crimes she is being punished for. The small folk are told she is being punished for having sex outside marriage. Whatever occurred in private between Cersei and the HS none of the people that are involved in the punishment know the "real" reason for it. Therefore it is setting a very dangerous president.

He may have told the smallfolk what he did for political reasons. "There are other charges laid against Your Grace, crimes far more grievous than simple fornications.

He obviously didn't consider the sex Cersei had that big of a deal.

Even if the HS thinks he knows what's up, all he has it the word of Lancel who is clearly distraught in his confession, and Cersei who can easily deny the charges brought on by Lancel. OKB's confession is brought during torture, therefore not really all that reliable. Many many non jews confessed to being jews during the Spanish Inquisition because they were being tortured. Torturing someone and asking them pointed questions looking for a specific response is not a reliable way to get the truth.

Specifically bringing up the fact that you were sent to murder a previous HS and to conspire to kill the new queen is quite a bit different than saying "I'm a Jew" to either get out of punishment or die to stop the pain. During torture I don't think OKB would have been able to think up something so clever. And Lancel may have been distraught, but why would he just make up a random charge against his cousin and ruin his entire family.

Again, Cersei is going to stand trial for her real crimes, the walk is just a way to humiliate her for being a "slut". It was a way for the HS to say, "look what I can do to you, and you can't do a damn thing about it." It was a power play to show dominance and nothing more.

I think the man did what he did for a large amount of reasons. I am not so quick to call it just power pissing.

[Dany Girl]

She confessed only to sex after Robert's death. She'd have been confessing to a capital crime, if she'd admitted adultery.

^^exactly. Cheating on Robert would be treason since he's King, not just a Lord. It's also admitting that her children may be bastards. Cersei will NEVER confess to that. Treason is punished by death, and her children will be right there next to her. Cersei cares #1 about power but #2 is her kids. They're the only people that she remotely loves, even in her twisted way. No way would she admit that to anyone and put herself and the kids in that position. Her confession was only to sex after his death, which is not illegal in any way.

[mrunderhill]

Cersei confessed to extra-marital affairs... Which is to cheat on your husband. Her's was the king. So it is more than having sex after Robert died.

No she confessed to having extra-marital sex. If she had confessed to extra-marital affairs she would lose her head.

but again, these are not the crimes she is being punished for. The small folk are told she is being punished for having sex outside marriage. Whatever occurred in private between Cersei and the HS none of the people that are involved in the punishment know the "real" reason for it. Therefore it is setting a very dangerous president.

Even if the HS thinks he knows what's up, all he has it the word of Lancel who is clearly distraught in his confession, and Cersei who can easily deny the charges brought on by Lancel. OKB's confession is brought during torture, therefore not really all that reliable. Many many non jews confessed to being jews during the Spanish Inquisition because they were being tortured. Torturing someone and asking them pointed questions looking for a specific response is not a reliable way to get the truth.

Again, Cersei is going to stand trial for her real crimes, the walk is just a way to humiliate her for being a "slut". It was a way for the HS to say, "look what I can do to you, and you can't do a damn thing about it." It was a power play to show dominance and nothing more.

Why is Lancel's confession dismiss-able? Osney gives a very reasonably explanation for his otherwise stupid act. He just walked in and confessed to committing treason. Why would any sane man do this? Obviously something foul was at play. The High Septon has good reason to think she is guilty her own words gave it away.

The walk was not just about humiliating Cersei for being a 'slut', but to strip her of power.

The High Septon has known of Cersei's affair with Lancel for a while. If he was that bothered about her having sex after Robert's death he would have acted then. It's only after Osney's confession does he decide to act, because this is the big thing.

[butterbumps!]

Cersei confessed to extra-marital affairs... Which is to cheat on your husband. Her's was the king. So it is more than having sex after Robert died.

No, here's Cersei's confession. She admits to sleeping with Lancel and all 3 Kettleblacks as a widow:

“Mother have mercy on me, then. I have lain with men outside the bonds of marriage. I confess it.”

“Who?” The High Septon’s eyes were fixed on hers. Cersei could hear Unella writing behind her. Her quill made a faint, soft scratching sound.

“Lancel Lannister, my cousin. And Osney Kettleblack.” Both men had confessed to bedding her, it would do her no good to deny it. “His brothers too. Both of them.” She had no way of knowing what Osfryd and Osmund might say. Safer to confess too much than too little. “It does not excuse my sin, High Holiness, but I was lonely and afraid. The gods took King Robert from me, my love and my protector. I was alone, surrounded by schemers, false friends, and traitors who were conspiring at the death of my children. I did not know who to trust, so I … I used the only means that I had to bind the Kettleblacks to me.”

.............................

“I was lonely.” She choked back a sob. “I had lost my husband, my son, my lord father. I was regent, but a queen is still a woman, and women are weak vessels, easily tempted … Your High Holiness knows the truth of that. Even holy septas have been known to sin. I took comfort with Lancel. He was kind and gentle and I needed someone. It was wrong, I know, but I had no one else … a woman needs to be loved, she needs a man beside her, she … she …” She began to sob uncontrollably.......

..........................

The High Sparrow was not done with her, however. “These are common sins,” he said. “The wickedness of widows is well-known, and all women are wantons at heart, given to using their wiles and their beauty to work their wills on men. There is no treason here, so long as you did not stray from your marriage bed whilst His Grace King Robert was still alive.”

“Never,” she whispered, shivering. “Never, I swear it.”

The WoS was for her confession of fornicating as a widow.