Cersei in AFFC

[Theda Baratheon]

Ser. Lucamore. Castrated. Exact. Same. Reason.

I don't want to be rude here, but I really don't think you understand what ''Misandry'' and ''Misogyny'' actually are then if you think these crimes were the same things.

No. No, they weren't. Lucamore's is horrible, yes, but it was a punishment stemming from ''misandry'' whatsoever. it was a punishment for breaking his strict vows.

Cersei, as a Queen and a woman was made to walk in the filth of the city and have the small folk see her for what she's never wanted to be viewed as, a ''weak'' woman, an aging woman, a woman that's losing her beauty.

People seem to think this accusation of misogyny means that it's the worst punishment ever, it's not, there have been worse punishment in terms of physical and mental pain, HOWEVER, those instances do NOT diminish the fact that this was a misogynistic punishment, even for the universe of ASOIAF, which is pseudo medieval, these sorts of things did not happen to Queens.

[Bushido]

:rolleyes:

Don't you know mothers start bonding with their babies though breastfeeding?

[Sansa_Stark]

I don't want to be rude here, but I really don't think you understand what ''Misandry'' and ''Misogyny'' actually are then if you think these crimes were the same things.

No. No, they weren't. Lucamore's is horrible, yes, but it was a punishment stemming from ''misandry'' whatsoever. it was a punishment for breaking his strict vows.

Cersei, as a Queen and a woman was made to walk in the filth of the city and have the small folk see her for what she's never wanted to be viewed as, a ''weak'' woman, an aging woman, a woman that's losing her beauty.

People seem to think this accusation of misogyny means that it's the worst punishment ever, it's not, there have been worse punishment in terms of physical and mental pain, HOWEVER, those instances do NOT diminish the fact that this was a misogynistic punishment, even for the universe of ASOIAF, which is pseudo medieval, these sorts of things did not happen to Queens.

Misandry and misogyny are basically the same thing..................except you switch genders.

I don't think the motivations for the punishments really matter that much....whether he broke a vow or whether she just slept with a whole bunch of guys doesn't matter to me. And I think Mrunderhill brought up a very good point like he usually does, Cersei would not have been punished so badly if the HS, didn't think she was possibly guilty of other crimes(sorry if I'm wrong, I'm a little drunk right now, will admit to being wrong if I am later).

Cutting off a man's parts is done so that Lucamore is seen as less than a man in the world. I mean, Varys was beat down like hell JUST BECAUSE HE WAS A EUNUCH IN ESSOS. I don't see how that isn't a sexist punishment against men when it really comes down to it.

Point is, cutting off a man's balls/penis is basically also a message like "you are less than a man and worthless" and now we're going to send you to the watch where you will be beat down by criminals who know you're a eunuch"

That's my take.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

That's humiliating enough for Cersei. What makes it a hundred times worse for her is that she's a Queen, and the Lady of Casterly Rock, having to endure being jeered and pelted with filth, by the Smallfolk.

But she's no better than any of them, she just believes she is. She deserved to be humbled.

[UVA]

What are you saying then? That Cersei's punishment was this horrible thing while Lucamore's was acceptable? It is the same thing. Not all members of the guard were punished for breaking their vows. Not all noblewomen are the queen. She has a bigger duty than they do

So her public humiliation that is tantamount to sexual assault is justifiable because she's not just any noblewoman but the queen? This seems to go against the practice that the lower-born criminal gets a more severe punishment in comparison to the higher-born. In any event I find that the WoS is a disproportionate punishment to all of Cersei's enormities, and most certainly to the crime (having sex outside of wedlock, as a widow no less) to which she confessed.

To evaluate the rightness of the WoS you must accept that the essence of the punishment was to degrade and deprive her of selfhood, which is the result of any sexual assault. While I think that the High Septon's decision to punish Cersei in this manner is fundamentally misogynistic -- as naked women are almost always viewed as sexual objects under most circumstances -- there is also the idea that he wanted this to be a didactic punishment, as opposed to exacting justice, for both Cersei and the nobility at large.

:rolleyes:

Don't you know mothers start bonding with their babies though breastfeeding?

I take it the OP has never breastfed a child, but I have to admit to being put off by how Martin describes breasts/nipples/lactation throughout the books. (The whole Gilly/Sam scene is just gross.) So the OP's reaction doesn't seem misplaced to me. Cersei's internal monologue here describes that bonding and evinces her love for Joff. I don't think there is anything sexual about it for her but I wonder if it isn't for Martin, where he conflates sexual pleasure derived from the breast with breastfeeding. I realize that this may be my own hangup and I admit that my personal critique is largely derived from the fact that I feel very protective about breastfeeding, about doing it in public without shame because it's not sexual, it's not obscene.

[illrede]

Being paraded naked through the streets being considered sexual assault debases sexual assualt.

[Bushido]

I take it the OP has never breastfed a child, but I have to admit to being put off by how Martin describes breasts/nipples/lactation throughout the books. (The whole Gilly/Sam scene is just gross.) So the OP's reaction doesn't seem misplaced to me. Cersei's internal monologue here describes that bonding and evinces her love for Joff. I don't think there is anything sexual about it for her but I wonder if it isn't for Martin, where he conflates sexual pleasure derived from the breast with breastfeeding. I realize that this may be my own hangup and I admit that my personal critique is largely derived from the fact that I feel very protective about breastfeeding, about doing it in public without shame because it's not sexual, it's not obscene.

I think that the scene is a subtle way of establishing Cersei as mother first and foremost; she describes it as her greatest satisfaction, in her life full of unhappiness. If the scene is painted so intensely, I think it's because of Cersei's passionate nature and extremist views and desires.

This may be of interest to you...

[Blueberry Stark]

Definition of sexual assault:

Conduct of a sexual or indecent nature toward another person that is accompanied by actual or threatened physical force or that induces fear, shame, or mental suffering.

(From the Free Online Dictionary)

For the 10th time I'm going to assert that the infamous WoS is a form of sexual assault. I think this definition makes it clear enough how/why one would consider Cersei's punishment to be a form of sexual assault, but if anyone needs me to explain it more clearly I would be happy to do so for the 11th time.

Although Cersei has committed horrible crimes, I still don't believe that she deserved this punishment. I don't think that any form of sexual assault or torture should ever be used to punish anyone no matter how deplorable his or her actions may be.

Although I agree that the HS is punishing Cersei for other crimes that he believes she has committed, no one watching her degradation actually knows that. The misogynistic message of the WoS is clearly a warning to women not to engage in sex outside of marriage or there will be dire consequences, even for the queen. Yes, OK is also stripped naked and then beaten; he is not paraded naked through the streets.

Both punishments are inhuman in my opinion.

[illrede]

Definition of sexual assault:

Conduct of a sexual or indecent nature toward another person that is accompanied by actual or threatened physical force or that induces fear, shame, or mental suffering.

(From the Free Online Dictionary)

That is not the criminal definition of sexual assault.

[kephv]

Ironically, while her PoV in AFfC only made her appear more loathsome, I actually liked her more by the end. Probably because she's so entertaining. I see her reaching new heights in the next book.

[Blueberry Stark]

That is not the criminal definition of sexual assault.

This IS a definition of sexual assault. There is no universal definition for criminal sexual assault as it varies from one legal system to another. The WoS wouldn't have been considered criminal sexual assault in Westeros, so I wasn't even thinking about it from a legalistic standpoint. At any rate, I view Cersei's punishment as a form of sexual assault.

[UVA]

That is not the criminal definition of sexual assault.

So what? Statutory definitions of sexual assault aren't pertinent to this issue; and perhaps the distinction needs to be made. I view the WoS as de facto sexual assault. A queen is stripped naked and forced to march through the streets under the physical and verbal abuse of spectators. There's no forced penetration, no explicit fondling but I contend that by virtue of involving a female the situation defaults to a form of sexual abuse.

What bothers me more about this issue is that many believe the WoS to be retributive justice for Cersei's numerous crimes (not just the one she owned up to), and isn't nor should be.ever.

I think that the scene is a subtle way of establishing Cersei as mother first and foremost; she describes it as her greatest satisfaction, in her life full of unhappiness. If the scene is painted so intensely, I think it's because of Cersei's passionate nature and extremist views and desires.

I don't disagree with this, and you may be right in that the scene is written in a particularly intense way in order to establish Cersei's maternal feelings. I don't deny that Martin views breastfeeding as practical but I am cynical, again my own hangup and it is somewhat controversial, that the breastfeeding scenes, description of nipples and boobs in general are somewhat exploitative.

[illrede]

So what? Statutory definitions of sexual assault aren't pertinent to this issue.

It kind of is when a person is complaining about the term being debased. The vernacular definition given there covers stepping up to somebodies face and spit-screaming to all and sundry that they're a whore as they cower. It's useless.

[bbstark]

That is not the criminal definition of sexual assault.

I think that if you want to contribute to the conversation, and actually be effective, negating somebody's idea is not sufficient.

If you want to argue what the "criminal definition" is, or how it's relevant to the idea, you're going to have to answer the question: HOW exactly does the definiton of sexual assault not apply to Cersei.

At this point, this statement alone is entirely unconvincing.

Furthermore, Cersei was deliberately made vulnerable by being naked, barefoot and shaved as the day she was born, then she's marched to the streets. She is left vulnerable to verbal, and whatever physical abuse could reach her. If it wasn't intended as physical abuse, then let me ask you, WHY were there soldiers around her to protect her? The High Septon sure as hell wouldn't let a queen be publicly vaginally, orally or anally *penetrated* in the streets, but it is a reminder to Cersei that without the wall that is her protection of the HS's mighty minions, she would be.

How is that NOT sexual abuse?

[Dany Girl]

I think that if you want to contribute to the conversation, and actually be effective, negating somebody's idea is not sufficient.

If you want to argue what the "criminal definition" is, or how it's relevant to the idea, you're going to have to answer the question: HOW exactly does the definiton of sexual assault not apply to Cersei.

At this point, this statement alone is entirely unconvincing.

Furthermore, Cersei was deliberately made vulnerable by being naked, barefoot and shaved as the day she was born, then she's marched to the streets. She is left vulnerable to verbal, and whatever physical abuse could reach her. If it wasn't intended as physical abuse, then let me ask you, WHY were there soldiers around her to protect her? The High Septon sure as hell wouldn't let a queen be publicly vaginally, orally or anally *penetrated* in the streets, but it is a reminder to Cersei that without the wall that is her protection of the HS's mighty minions, she would be.

How is that NOT sexual abuse?

I agree. The fact that people (I'm betting mostly men) are actually trying to say her treatment was even remotely within the realms of justice quite frankly sickens me. If you don't take offense to a woman being shaved and paraded through the streets naked in a way that is inarguably used to mock her gender and make her weak and powerless, well then I guess that answers why there is still so much rape and misogyny I the current world we live in. No wonder high school boys believe it is ok to rape a girl who is passed out drunk at a party, take pictures of it, pass them around school and social media. This scene is meant to horrify you. He's publishing her for having sex while not married. He may think she's guilty of other crimes, but he only has a confession of 1 wrong thing that isn't even a crime. She's not married, she can sleep with whomever she wants. There's not laws on sex outside marriage. He's doing this just to humiliate her. That is a form of rape, you can try to justify it all you want. But it doesn't fly with me. It was wrong and I hope the HS pays for it.

[illrede]

How is that NOT sexual abuse?

It isn't implicit threat of rape, it's humiliation. She is deemed eligable for it because of her sex, but that is not what is occuring.

[bbstark]

It isn't implicit threat of rape, it's humiliation. She is deemed eligable for it because of her sex, but that is not what is occuring.

but if it is not implicit threat of rape, she could be paraded around like that in the streets without the guards, no? However that is not what happens. She is very well guarded, in spite of which, Cersei shows fear on several occasions.

I can't make any sense of your second sentence, if you could please elaborate, that would be great.

[illrede]

but if it is not implicit threat of rape, she could be paraded around like that in the streets without the guards, no? However that is not what happens. She is very well guarded, in spite of which, Cersei shows fear on several occasions.

I can't make any sense of your second sentence, if you could please elaborate, that would be great.

We're in her head throughout it; we are in her head the moment that she cracks. The mob is uncouth at parts, the mob is unruly at parts. What goes through her mind isn't fear of being sexually assaulted, or realizing that she can be sexually assaulted; it's the standing naked in public feeling dialed up to eleven. "they've seen, they've seen, they've seen", etc. That she has lost her mystique, she is no longer a queen in their eyes, she is no longer an aluring powerful woman, that she is old, and used, and common.

She has been publically humiliated unto psychological destruction.

Won't last.

EDIT: Although the point was to publically destroy her for having sex with people. That's the misogyny.

[Dr. Pepper]

She has been publically humiliated unto psychological destruction.

I am genuinely curious what exactly you think goes on in the mind of a person being sexually assaulted. Everything you describe, including and especially this statement, is near textbook inner experience for a victim of sexual assault.

[Ser Smoke-A-Lot]

I can agree with the OP. It also doesn't help that Cersei was well-established as a Grade-A bitch before her POV's came along. Kind of hard for me to become wholly invested in reading POV's from someone we know to be biggest c**t in Westeros. And unlike other POV's like Jaime or Theon she showed no growth or sign of redemption. We needed a POV from KL though so there we go. What is it about KL POV's? Sansa and Cersei...my two least favorite POV characters.