Cersei in AFFC

[Theda Baratheon]

I can agree with this wholeheartedly. Justice is a word that has a very specific meaning. People seem to be confusing Justice with Revenge.

Yes. I won't go into specifics, but there are certain characters that all of us would feel a certain glee over when they get their ''comeuppance'' but don't mistake that sadistic sense of glee for a feeling of justice.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

I didn't really feel any sort of justice at that either.

I would feel more justice if someone was tried for their crimes, found guilty and then executed or punished accordingly. All these nasty, disgusting deaths and acts of torture really don't leave a nice feeling of justice in my stomach. But that's just me. :)

Personally, I think that justice is rather subjective, so I guess it can be argued that these examples were just. But I think that there is a distinction, or that there should be, between someone 'deserving' something and justice.

I've had to completely remove myself from our own modern "refined" society to get emotionally invested in ASOIAF because they don't play by our rules. From my perspective, both the Walk of Shame and Hoat's dismemberment were justice based on their rules. These characters are not going to learn or repent, certainly not within the fictional confines of Martin's work. So I find it satisfactory to see them take a deserved beating, regardless of the source or the reasons for it. It doesn't mean I view the High Sparrow as a good guy now, in fact, he's another one who could use some justice.

Would I personally have ordered Cersei publically humiliated or Hoat's slow death if I were just teleported into that world? No. But based on the rules we're dealing with in a world frustratingly out of our control, I am happy to take what I can get. There's so much blatant INjustice that goes on, it's nice when the bad guys get theirs.

[Theda Baratheon]

I've had to completely remove myself from our own modern "refined" society to get emotionally invested in ASOIAF because they don't play by our rules. From my perspective, both the Walk of Shame and Hoat's dismemberment were justice based on their rules. These characters are not going to learn or repent, certainly not within the fictional confines of Martin's work. So I find it satisfactory to see them take a deserved beating, regardless of the source or the reasons for it. It doesn't mean I view the High Sparrow as a good guy now, in fact, he's another one who could use some justice.

See:

Yes. I won't go into specifics, but there are certain characters that all of us would feel a certain glee over when they get their ''comeuppance'' but don't mistake that sadistic sense of glee for a feeling of justice.

But in the end, it's more how we perceive justice and what that word means to us, to me it means to be just, to be right, and the right way to punish someone is never torture. Even in that universe, torture is still torture and grisly deaths are still grisly deaths.

[mrunderhill]

Who said what she's suffered is worse than Theon's and what she's suffered is worse that the Kettlebacks? Personally I find this barteri9ng of what sort of torture or death is worse in pretty damn poor taste and entirely pointless.

It doesn't matter if something was ''better'' or ''worse'', a certain scene can still stand on its own merit, and the Walk of Shame is a horrible, degrading punishment in itself. Why do people feel the need to compare and contrast horrible acts all the time. They're all horrible, end of.

She was not tortured or handed death. The severity of punishments is how we judge things. That's why you get different sentences for different crimes. Considering what the other people accused of the same crime received, she got off lightly. I don't see many people weeping about what has happened to the Kettleblacks. You call the High Septon a misogynist, but ignore that the men got a far worse punishment. If they are lucky they spend the rest of their lives on the wall. Osney is stripped naked, hung from the ceiling and whipped.

[indignant mushroom]

I don't see the big fuss about Cersei's punishment at all. It's hardly the worst punishment to be handed out in the world. Let's stop acting like the High Septon is being a misogynist. The Kettleblacks got much worse punishments. Osney was severely whipped for confessing to sleeping with th Queen, whilst his two brothers are being sent to the wall. It's crazy to compare what Cersei went through to what happened to Theon.

Cersei is a very interesting character and one of my favourite POV's. She is not the most reliable narrator though.

No one is comparing Cersei to Theon, and really to even suggest it is really in bad taste here. Her punishment doesn't have to be compared, it can stand alone as its own example.

[illrede]

They are different though sometimes they can ultimately result in the same thing. Executing for a murder is both justice and revenge. The same with gelding/execution for rape.

This is more like gelding a murderer in concept. I'll take it in lieu of nothing, but I'm not satisfied.

[Theda Baratheon]

She was not tortured or handed death. The severity of punishments is how we judge things. Considering what other people accused of the same crime she got off lightly. I don't see many people weeping about what has happened to the Kettleblacks. You call the High Septon a misogynist, but ignore that the men got a far worse punishment. If they are lucky they spend the rest of their lives on the wall. Osney is stripped naked, hung from the ceiling and whipped.

Unless you forgot, oh so quickly, we're talking about Cersei's Walk of Shame in AFFC, because, well...this is a thread about Cersei in AFFC?

Seriously. If this was a thread on the High Septon then we'd talk about all of this and if this was a thread on the Kettlebacks we'd talk about this.

Just because someone is a misogynist or behaves in a misogynistic way doesn't mean they can't treat men like shit too, seriously.

You wanna start a thread about the kettlebacks, do it, but don't get on my case for not crying over them when we're discussing Cersei in a thread about Cersei.

[mrunderhill]

No one is comparing Cersei to Theon, and really to even suggest it is really in bad taste here. Her punishment doesn't have to be compared, it can stand alone as its own example.

When you start saying the High Septon was a misogynist then you bring her punishment in comparison to what the men received. As I said I have never seen anyone express any anger or distaste for the Kettleblacks.

[indignant mushroom]

She was not tortured or handed death. The severity of punishments is how we judge things. That's why you get different sentences for different crimes. Considering what the other people accused of the same crime received, she got off lightly. I don't see many people weeping about what has happened to the Kettleblacks. You call the High Septon a misogynist, but ignore that the men got a far worse punishment. If they are lucky they spend the rest of their lives on the wall. Osney is stripped naked, hung from the ceiling and whipped.

But see, just as some think Cersei got the worst punishment, you think the Kettlebacks got handed a bad card. But I don't see anyone disagreeing with you on that.

Really, this whole discussion is going to continue in circles until everyone can agree to disagree on what they personally think is justice, and what/if something was unjustly done to a character.

Which brings us back to: justice is subjective, and there is a fine line between justice and revenge.

[Lord Flashheart]

She was not tortured or handed death. The severity of punishments is how we judge things. That's why you get different sentences for different crimes. Considering what the other people accused of the same crime received, she got off lightly. I don't see many people weeping about what has happened to the Kettleblacks. You call the High Septon a misogynist, but ignore that the men got a far worse punishment. If they are lucky they spend the rest of their lives on the wall. Osney is stripped naked, hung from the ceiling and whipped.

This is a thread about Cersei thou and this was covered in the post you quoted.

Who said what she's suffered is worse than Theon's and what she's suffered is worse that the Kettlebacks? Personally I find this barteri9ng of what sort of torture or death is worse in pretty damn poor taste and entirely pointless.

It doesn't matter if something was ''better'' or ''worse'', a certain scene can still stand on its own merit, and the Walk of Shame is a horrible, degrading punishment in itself. Why do people feel the need to compare and contrast horrible acts all the time. They're all horrible, end of.

I feel like you quoted this but didn't read any of it.

[Theda Baratheon]

When you start saying the High Septon was a misogynist then you bring her punishment in comparison to what the men received. As I said I have never seen anyone express any anger or distaste for the Kettleblacks.

No, you're wrong, that isn't the case at all. Someone can act in a misogynistic way and still act in a shitty way towards men too.

And I have to repeat, we're discussing Cersei because this is a thread about Cersei.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

See:

But in the end, it's more how we perceive justice and what that word means to us, to me it means to be just, to be right, and the right way to punish someone is never torture. Even in that universe, torture is still torture and grisly deaths are still grisly deaths.

And it seems to me you're looking at it from a modern perspective, kind of based on the court systems many countries use today and I'm looking at it from a fictional perspective. These are not real people suffering real pain. They are over the top to be honest and over the top sentences sort of fit their over the top crimes.

[mrunderhill]

Unless you forgot, oh so quickly, we're talking about Cersei's Walk of Shame in AFFC, because, well...this is a thread about Cersei in AFFC?

Seriously. If this was a thread on the High Septon then we'd talk about all of this and if this was a thread on the Kettlebacks we'd talk about this.

Just because someone is a misogynist or behaves in a misogynistic way doesn't mean they can't treat men like shit too, seriously.

You wanna start a thread about the kettlebacks, do it, but don't get on my case for not crying over them when we're discussing Cersei in a thread about Cersei.

Yes and we are discussing why she got off lightly compared to what the others got. If there is any misogyny from the HIgh Septon it is towards the men, who were treated far worse.

Her Walk of Shame was far more lenient than what the other participants got.

[Opa Tywin]

The best thing about the walk of shame is that you kind of want something bad to happen to Cercei for all the things she's done, and as you read it you might feel some kind of satisfaction, but on the other hand its disturbing and utterly sad to read how she tries to keep her pride at first then breaks down to cry and crawl up that hill like an animal. I loved it, it was brilliantly written.

[indignant mushroom]

When you start saying the High Septon was a misogynist then you bring her punishment in comparison to what the men received. As I said I have never seen anyone express any anger or distaste for the Kettleblacks.

No, no I don't....You do, though. That's your prerogative.

Heaven forbid we discuss Cersei in a thread titled "Cersei in AFFC."

Like Theda said....If you're really concerned about the KB, start a thread about their treatment. I'll gladly join you in agreeing that it was wrong, but for the moment, I'm going to continue talking about Cersei and misogyny.

[Theda Baratheon]

And it seems to me you're looking at it from a modern perspective, kind of based on the court systems many countries use today and I'm looking at it from a fictional perspective. These are not real people suffering real pain. They are over the top to be honest and over the top sentences sort of fit their over the top crimes.

No. I'm not. I already told you I am very anti-capital punishment, but when reading these books, and immersing myself in this universe I understand that execution is a just form of punishment. Torture and grisly deaths aren't just. They might be a ''good'' thing in the long run as they eliminate certain horrible characters, but they're not just. Not to me anyway. I don't confuse my dislike for certain characters and the feeling of satisfaction I get when they're knocked down for a feeling of self-righteous judgement.

[Theda Baratheon]

Yes and we are discussing why she got off lightly compared to what the others got. If there is any misogyny from the HIgh Septon it is towards the men, who were treated far worse.

Her Walk of Shame was far more lenient than what the other participants got.

You're reading all my posts and you're reiterating things I have already covered and you are so want to do in many other threads. I've already said I find it distasteful and pointless to compare punishments to each other in what is ''better'' and what is ''worse'' it's kinda gross. If we're talking about the kettlebacks, the punishment they recieved was a lot worse in terms of physical pain, probably mental pain aswell, but their horrible punishment, to me, doesn't affect the fact that Cersei's punishment was misogynistic, horrible and degrading, because it was all of those things, even if other punishments in the series are far worse, why should that change the fact that this was pretty fucking nasty too?

Seriously. Like I've already said, this bartering over which punishment was ''better'' or ''worse'' is kinda icky.

[mrunderhill]

No, you're wrong, that isn't the case at all. Someone can act in a misogynistic way and still act in a shitty way towards men too.

And I have to repeat, we're discussing Cersei because this is a thread about Cersei.

I don't see the misogyny when he punished both men and women for the same crime? Please explain to me the big difference?

This is a thread about Cersei thou and this was covered in the post you quoted.

I feel like you quoted this but didn't read any of it.

It is about Cersei and it led to her punishment, which was not even in AFFC. Justice is all about giving the right punishment to fit the right crime. This is why punishments are compared. In general the punishments in Westeros are MUCH, MUCH harsher than our day. Nor is Cersei being punished in isolation. She is believed by the High Septon to be guilty of numerous other crimes. Her Walk of Shame is not just about her affairs, but about the other things they believe her to be guilty of as well

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

No. I'm not. I already told you I am very anti-capital punishment, but when reading these books, and immersing myself in this universe I understand that execution is a just form of punishment. Torture and grisly deaths aren't just. They might be a ''good'' thing in the long run as they eliminate certain horrible characters, but they're not just. Not to me anyway. I don't confuse my dislike for certain characters and the feeling of satisfaction I get when they're knocked down for a feeling of self-righteous judgement.

How can anyone view a punishment a character receives in a work of fiction "self-righteously." We have no control over the work and take what we're given.

[indignant mushroom]

Her Walk of Shame is not just about her affairs, but about the other things they believe her to be guilty of as well

She confessed to sleeping with the KB, which she knew wouldn't earn her a death sentence. Anything incriminating of more malicious practices she left out for that reason.