Ned at the Wall

[MRHD]

No. This misunderstands the nature of taking the Black. Taking the Black is a choice, even if the choice is between death and service in the Night's Watch. A man gives his word to do it. If Ned is going to the Wall, it's because he's pledged to join the Night's Watch: and being freed on the way won't change that pledge.

I could see him maybe, maybe, deciding to delay his service until after the war. But that's all.

There's a very similar topic about Jon deserting, and people seem to be making a similar mistake there. The Starks are the last people in Westeros who would play fast and loose with the rules on the Night's Watch.

I agree with this very strongly. Ned was nothing if not a man of his word. If he swore an oath to join the Night's Watch then that's what he'd do, no matter why he swore it or who tried to get him out of it. This is why sending Ned to the Night's Watch is a viable alternative to Cersei besides keeping him in a dungeon or outright killing him: she knows that his honor would compel him to stay true to his oath, past the point of practicality or reason.

[profilebegone]

No way. That sounds like a great story but it wouldn't happen because the Lannisters would have Sansa and Arya. That's the only reason Ned publicly claims treason. Maybe Ned defies his vows, leaves the wall, and raises an army of the North, Neck, Vale, and Riverlands to overthrow Joffrey and save Sansa and Arya after declaring Joff a fraud. That too would be a hell of a story. But still I think it doubtful because it puts his children at risk.

I think we're almost in agreement here. The reason I specified "after the Whispering Wood" is because at that point the North has many valuable hostages, including Jaime Lannister. If Ned rallied the North, the Riverlands, and (possibly) the Vale to support Stannis (as he would likely do) it might put Sansa at risk but the Lannisters would know harming Sansa would bring the same down on Jaime.

[mormont]

The key difference is that Jon Snow willingly and freely took the oath; Ned simply committed to enlisting, and only under extreme duress and coercion. I don't think it would take much to absolve him of that commitment.

Robb would have ambushed the party escorting Ned to the Wall and freed him. Ned would be okay with this because Joffrey is a false king and therefore his demands don't mean anything.

Again, this is a misreading of Ned's character and the situation. It's got nothing to do with Joffrey's falseness or being under duress: Ned gave his word. Even if we ignore the fact that Sansa is hostage to that promise, Ned is a man whose word caused him to keep a secret that hurt his whole family for fifteen years. He doesn't treat his word lightly, no matter the circumstances. Whatever Joff's commands mean, Ned's word means something, and he gave it. The fact that it involves the Night's Watch only increases that. Ned is no fool. He knows that if he finds a way out, he's hurting the Watch, showing the way for others. No Night's Watch recruiter would be able to operate without fear of ambush, if he let this happen.

As I say, I could believe that, if he really felt it was necessary, Ned might put his commitment on hold - but he'd fulfil it.

The rest is wish-fulfilment fantasies.

[Morienthar]

Ned at the wall would have only strengthened the Watch and they would have a competent LC after the death of the Old Bear or maybe the Joer's death itself could have been prevented.

As for Ned honoring the promise,He didn't really have much of a choice and the fact that he promised to do so makes me say he would have honored the promise.

[daario's man]

Ned would stay at the Wall no matter what, also no one would have ambushed his party as he would have gone by ship just like Janos Slynt.

[Barty]

I dont think Ned would give up his oaths to the NW even though oaths taken at swordpoint are not supposed to be binding. He could use it as an excuse to get away from his NW duties and no man would ever question him but his own honor wont allow him to do so.

A better question would be whether Robb would make peace with the Lannisters or not. I think after the WW he knows that he is in a strong negotiating position - he has thrice as many prisoners as Tywin does and he has Jaime and all the riverlords as well. A peace might very well be possible if the Lannisters agree to leave the riverlands, release all prisoners(including Sansa), give back Ice and give the North and riverlands a tax exemption for a few years. Robb would go back North and rule as Lord of WF and Warden of the North, destroy Mance's army and start the preparation for a proper defense against the Others.

[The Unborn]

Reaity is, if Ned is sent to the wall, he is there when Yoren gets attack for Gendry, have you guys thought about that? So he probably dies right there trying to save Arya. Maybe he'd be able to survive the attack.and go to the wall, but somehow I doubt it.

[Barty]

Reaity is, if Ned is sent to the wall, he is there when Yoren gets attack for Gendry, have you guys thought about that? So he probably dies right there trying to save Arya. Maybe he'd be able to survive the attack.and go to the wall, but somehow I doubt it.

You think Cersei would send Ned with a band of criminals through a war torn country?? She will either send him via ship or send a strong guard of hundreds of men to see Ned actually reaches the wall.

[The Unborn]

We still have to go with what the book tells us. Yoren was told to wait for him so probably no ship since Yoren probably would have waited for him on a ship otherwise. I guess they could be escorted though, but if they are there is no way to know what happens when the guards come for Gendry.

[Lehnaru]

Barristan would never have gone to Essos

Then Dany would have died in Qarth. Remember the manticore? Even if she'd survived, she wouldn't have found ships. Even if she had, she'd have been killed by Mero. Either way, Dany would be doomed. I'd be inclined to think that Ned would have put his obligation to join the Night's Watch on hold in order to secure the peace of the realm and put Stannis on the throne. If Ned did that, Barristan would have stayed in King's Landing. If Ned had went to the Wall, Barristan would still have been dismissed.

[profilebegone]

Again, this is a misreading of Ned's character and the situation. It's got nothing to do with Joffrey's falseness or being under duress: Ned gave his word. Even if we ignore the fact that Sansa is hostage to that promise, Ned is a man whose word caused him to keep a secret that hurt his whole family for fifteen years. He doesn't treat his word lightly, no matter the circumstances. Whatever Joff's commands mean, Ned's word means something, and he gave it. The fact that it involves the Night's Watch only increases that. Ned is no fool. He knows that if he finds a way out, he's hurting the Watch, showing the way for others. No Night's Watch recruiter would be able to operate without fear of ambush, if he let this happen.

As I say, I could believe that, if he really felt it was necessary, Ned might put his commitment on hold - but he'd fulfil it.

The rest is wish-fulfilment fantasies.

Sure, but wish-fulfillment can be fun! Anyway, aren't there mentions in the books of vows made at swordpoint lacking full force of law or something along those lines?

Ned at the wall would have only strengthened the Watch and they would have a competent LC after the death of the Old Bear or maybe the Joer's death itself could have been prevented.

They did have a competent LC after the death of the Old Bear.

Then Dany would have died in Qarth.

Oh man that is a hell of a counterfactual.

Scenario: the Sorrowful Men kill Dany.

Questions:

-What does Dorne do?

-What do Euron and the rest of the Iron Islanders do?

-What do Varys & Illyrio do?

-What happens to her dragons?

-How dumb does Quaithe feel?

[mormont]

Sure, but wish-fulfillment can be fun! Anyway, aren't there mentions in the books of vows made at swordpoint lacking full force of law or something along those lines?

Various people claim this, but others regard them as valid. I have no doubt Ned would be in the latter camp.

Also, people seem to be ignoring that the 'sword', so to speak, is still at Ned's throat. The Lannisters still have Sansa. If Robb ambushes the party on the way to the Wall and Ned decides to blow off the agreement, what happens next? Nothing good.

[profilebegone]

Various people claim this, but others regard them as valid. I have no doubt Ned would be in the latter camp.

Also, people seem to be ignoring that the 'sword', so to speak, is still at Ned's throat. The Lannisters still have Sansa. If Robb ambushes the party on the way to the Wall and Ned decides to blow off the agreement, what happens next? Nothing good.

Well, when I specified my scenario, I said "after the Whispering Wood" because then Team North has Jaime.

[The Prince of Ice]

No. This misunderstands the nature of taking the Black. Taking the Black is a choice, even if the choice is between death and service in the Night's Watch. A man gives his word to do it. If Ned is going to the Wall, it's because he's pledged to join the Night's Watch: and being freed on the way won't change that pledge.

I could see him maybe, maybe, deciding to delay his service until after the war. But that's all.

There's a very similar topic about Jon deserting, and people seem to be making a similar mistake there. The Starks are the last people in Westeros who would play fast and loose with the rules on the Night's Watch.

Agree with this fully, I could see Ned fighting a war to make sure his children and the North are secure as well as the Throne. Then as his word dictates he would take the black.

[Harpo of House Trashcan]

Ned would tell Jon if he was his, Rhaegars, or Benjen's son. He would stand a good chance of becoming Lord Commander. He might let the wildlings in and he wouldn't have been as submissive to the Mannis

[grand old duke of stark]

'Harpo of House Trashcan' wrote:

Ned would tell Jon if he was his, Rhaegars, or Benjen's son. He would stand a good chance of becoming Lord Commander. He might let the wildlings in and he wouldn't have been as submissive to the Mannis.

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You took the words right out of my mouth! And while I still don't accept that L + R = J, if it is so, Ned certainly would have told Jon. More importantly, if Lyanna had also told him that Rhaegar did what he did because he thought the child would be the PtwP and/or AAR, Ned could have also told Jon that. They would have discussed this at length, and if Jon accepted that as his likely destiny, they would have worked on preparing him for his new prominence.

I disagree with the many posts that say Ned would have tamely joined the NW just because he gave his word in KL. He may not be a master politician, but he is a pragmatist. He knew that the circumstances of his promise allowed him to rescind it with honor. As many of you point out, the problem is Sansa (Arya was already free) is a hostage. But surely after his KL experience, Net has learned some guile. Maybe this is an anachronism, but why not send some undercover types (the BwB, if they're already formed) to 'extract' Sansa? Once she's safe, he can take any of the many actions proposed in previous posts. And I think it can be done.

[profilebegone]

Damn, I totally forgot about that - once Robert is dead, if Ned is still alive there's no reason for him not to drop the R+L=J bomb.

[Morienthar]

They did have a competent LC after the death of the Old Bear.

People wouldn't have rebelled against Lord Stark as easily as they did against Lord Snow.

[Dany Girl]

If his promise to Cersei to go to the wall is invalid by it being at sword point, then every criminal sent to the wall's vow is made invalid. Ned would do as he said. There would be no ambush by Robb as he only fights after receiving word of Ned's death IIRC. If he intercepted Ned, Ned would tell him to bend knee as that was part if the deal. He would want someone to find Arya though, unless he is traveling with Arya to the wall. Sansa wouldhbe kept hostage, but most likely still end up Queen to Joffery in order to keep peace. With Robb bending knee, they North would back Joff against Stannis and Renley and crush them. If Stannis still killed Renley, even easier to crush Stannis. I doubt Robb would go against Ned's orders if Ned told him to bend knee. Ned knew he was beat at this point, his only hope was the safety of the girls.

With Robb staying on the Lannister's side, the Iron Islands most likely would not have risen up. There would be no red wedding because Robb would never have vowed to marry a Frey. Theon wouldn't have sacked WF because he'd have stayed with Robb.

The things I'm most curious about is Ned's effect on the Wall. I don't think Jon would have been made leader if Ned were there, and a lot of things would be different.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

I think that had Ned sworn an oath to join the NW - he would have stuck to it once he would have given his word. Doing otherwise could have put the lives of his two daughters in danger, and that he would never have done.

As to what would have happened after that with some posters contending that he would have died protecting Arya when the King's men came to seek out Gendry, I am not entirely sure about that.

Until he was at the Wall and until he had sworn an oath to the NW, he was still Ned Stark - and hence, a valuable prisoner of sorts. I don't think Cersei would have risked the possibility of Ned escaping from the commitment that he had made (although I doubt that he ever would have) and would have made sure that he got to the Wall, with a companion or Royal Guard, meaning that when the King's men arrived for Gendry, they might have realised that there was a valuable prisoner en route for the Wall. They might have taken Yoren's word with a bit more credibility and left them all alone, or they might have taken everyone prisoner as they did, but let Ned (and maybe Arya?) go.

Once at the Wall, I think Ned would have had the promotions that were to come Jon's way - and rightly or wrongly, that might have stifled Jon's development.

I am still unsure as to whether Robb would have declared war - by rights, he would inherit Ned's title as soon as he had sworn his oath to the NW, and as we know him and Catelyn to be rather rash, he might still have declared himself King in the North over the apparent slight caused to his father, the attempted assassination of Bran and the fact that his sister(s) were hostages in Kings Landing.

I doubt that they would have just heeded to Ned's caution because of the deal he made with the Lannisters - remember that Ned believes Stannis to be the rightful heir before he is executed, but that doesn't stop Robb completely ignoring the fact that by rights, Stannis is next in line to the throne as he goes and supports Renly anyway.

At the same time, I see no reason why Stannis would still not have declared war and I predict that the Battle of Blackwater and the killing of Renly would have happened anyway.

But what I would have forecast is that had Ned gone to the Wall, most prominently, he probably would have told Jon of his true parentage, and if the son of R+L, there is no telling how a young, hormonal boy, deprived of any title or name to speak of and aghast at the Lannisters for their treatment of his family, would have reacted.

Remember that Jon is likely to discover his true parentage after a series of events and developments which have forced him to mature as a person - without the benefit of hindsight, I think there is a possibility that he might have gone off the rails and possibly done something rather stupid if he had been told of his heritage at that point in the story.