Heresy 63

[Lord Ravenstark]

And if the Song of Ice and Fire is not a song, and if it is instructions for a blood ritual?

[TheMtThatRides...Your Mom]

Ethnic? Men has been destroying the weirwoods. Men have been hunting entire species down to extinction. Men kills each other. Ethnic? Those are different species, with different values. Men invaded THEIR lands. I'm sorry, but... really? Ethnic cleansing? That's what you came up with?

I see Men as the aggressors here (as is our specie throughout our entire history). I'm sorry, but if someone from afar comes in and destroys my home, destroys my places of worship, destroy everything that i value... and then i finally fight back - am i wrong in doing it?

if your doing it to people that are the great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren of those people who don't even really believe it happened, did nothing to you themselves...then yes thats wrong. is that even a question?

[WWCED]

Five books in and so far the Others are clearly presented as EVIL, in that small amount of page time that he actually gave them. You can run around the term but that is what he wrote, that is the context in which they were presented to our heroes and in turn to us.

My impression from the books is that they are not so much evil, but Purposeful, and their logic is dictated by a completely different set of premises/assumptions.

Consider the scene with Waymar Royce in the AGoT prologue: The action is initiated by Royce when he pulls his sword first. The WW looks at the sword and then pulls its to meet the challenge. His subsequent death can be looked at as evil, for the manner of his execution, or as the penalty for failing to win. There is no canonical evidence for this but what might have happened if he stayed his hand, a parley?

There is also the attack on the Fist of the First Men. The name alone gives the impression of a fortress in enemy territory, and it IS the highest point in the area; a good place to command the approaches and engage enemies. Could the occupation of the Fist been the event that triggered the notice of the WW in the far North. The NW reoccupied the "ancient ringfort" atop the mountain, and lo and behold it brings the WW's and their undead minions(?)crashing down onto their head. If they were truly malevolent it would have been a better idea to pick them off in ones and twos every night to attrit them on their march north. But they did not do this, and instead chose to fight them on the battlefield that the NW chose, where they would have to fight uphill to get them.

Until TWoW all this speculation but I think the few clues we have should put pause to any concrete assessment of the WW's main characteristic being malice.

[Lockdown20]

Going back to the bit about child soldiers and although the t.v. show isn't cannon, I do recall that the very first wight we see (and the only wight in the scene as I remember) is the small child that was tied or pinned to the tree. It left a lasting impression and gave major creep factor.

[Locazo]

A big question I have about the WW and Wights is "why now"?

I mean, we know they´ve been here before, then were forced to retreated (by men, heat, cotf, whatever...). After that, for centuries, they almost disappear. We have some mention of sporadic encounters north of the wall here and there, but they´ve quite calm for a long time. Summer and winters came and went.

But then THIS winter coming, they are coming back. Why?

We have Ygritte saying the wildings opened a lot of graves and let shades lose. That's the reason? That was all that was needed for them to come back? Couldn´t they (craster's son for example) dig themselves?

[JonNonRegis]

She walked as close to Jon Snow as she dared, close enough to feel the mistrust pouring off him like a black fog. He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good. Melisandre had danced the same dance with Stannis Baratheon, back in the beginning.

Its quite clear that she has no loyalty to Stannis and that he's just a useful fool, and that she is as GRRM has admitted, playing her own game.

Yes, I would rank the loyalty in her mind like this:

1. Herself

2. R'hllor

3. Champions of R'hllor, such as Azor Ahai Reborn whom she believes is Stannis

The instant she perceives Stannis is not Azor Ahai Reborn, we will see just how fast her behavior shifts. (The phrase "turns on a dime" comes to mind.) I predict this will happen in the next book.

[Han Snow]

My impression from the books is that they are not so much evil, but Purposeful, and their logic is dictated by a completely different set of premises/assumptions.

Consider the scene with Waymar Royce in the AGoT prologue: The action is initiated by Royce when he pulls his sword first. The WW looks at the sword and then pulls its to meet the challenge. His subsequent death can be looked at as evil, for the manner of his execution, or as the penalty for failing to win. There is no canonical evidence for this but what might have happened if he stayed his hand, a parley?

There is also the attack on the Fist of the First Men. The name alone gives the impression of a fortress in enemy territory, and it IS the highest point in the area; a good place to command the approaches and engage enemies. Could the occupation of the Fist been the event that triggered the notice of the WW in the far North. The NW reoccupied the "ancient ringfort" atop the mountain, and lo and behold it brings the WW's and their undead minions(?)crashing down onto their head. If they were truly malevolent it would have been a better idea to pick them off in ones and twos every night to attrit them on their march north. But they did not do this, and instead chose to fight them on the battlefield that the NW chose, where they would have to fight uphill to get them.

Until TWoW all this speculation but I think the few clues we have should put pause to any concrete assessment of the WW's main characteristic being malice.

You are romanticizing them too much and putting human logic in their battle strategies. They saw humans they wanted to kill humans. If they saw NW as inferior and in no position to be a threat it doesn't matter where or how they exterminate them, human tactics don't apply.

[Black Crow]

Quite untrue. One of them fought Ser Waymar and won, and they or others have been visiting Craster's place for years without exterminating everything in sight. They have a mythical reputation in Westeros as the killers from the cold, but we really haven't yet seen enough of them to characterise them as evil - especially given GRRM's own caveats on the matter.

If we're getting deep into questions of morality consider this. There are, and always were very few of them, so they rely on slave soldiers to populate their armies. Their slaves are the dead, who don't care and don't suffer. Compare that with other slave armies, populated by the living - who do care and do suffer accordingly.

[Black Crow]

And if the Song of Ice and Fire is not a song, and if it is instructions for a blood ritual?

Song can be a harmony, but its also used in ASoIF (and in Celtic and Norse folklore) as a similie for conflict; see for example the conversation about the naming of Mance's (real) son; born while the swords were singing around him.

[Black Crow]

And I think the presentation of the Others in the show speaks volumes about how they are meant to be perceived.

With faces like those on the weirwoods - linking them to those cuddly tree-hugging children?

Okay, but what is the fire? Some ancient Dragon god, the father of Fire and Blood? A Supervulcano that needs to be put out?

The form has yet to be revealed, just as has whatever is in the Land of Always Winter. This is the Song of Ice and Fire, not the battle on the Ice.

[Lord Flashheart]

I figured I would ask this in heresy as you have gone over most everything here. Is there any proof or theories out there that the others killed Waymar and Will, to draw out the first ranger Benjen Stark, for his Stark blood? It isn't much to go on but it is always why I felt they killed them and let Gared go.

[Toccs]

Five books in and so far the Others are clearly presented as EVIL, in that small amount of page time that he actually gave them. You can run around the term but that is what he wrote, that is the context in which they were presented to our heroes and in turn to us.

I would argue that rather then being presented as "evil" pre se, they have instead been presented simply as a threat. With special emphaisis placed on the fact that the exact nature of said threat is compltetely forgotten by everybody. The remembering of the details behind the Others and the debunking of the myths built up around them is a one of the major arcs of this series.

Also remember that right up until the very last chapter of aSoS, it was accepted fact that the Lannisters were the ones who poisoned Jon Arryn. Things can always change . . .espceially when you least expect it.

If GRRM somehow decides to change that in the last book, because I doubt he'll give them much space in tWoW, for me it would be lazy and poor writing. He can not possibly hope to de-vilify them in a satisfying manner now. That little speech above was probably meant for his precious game of thrones players, the answer to the question means nothing. Others have to remain villainous if he means to finish this saga in a satisfying manner. Because 90% of the readers will never stand behind the idea of: "Oh, the Others actually have a decent agenda and we should sympathize with them!"

This reads to me like you are trying to project your own personal opinion on to 90% of the readers. :dunno:

For what it's worth, no one is suggesting that the Others will be completely de-villified. We are instead suggesting that it will be revealed that (as with everthing in the series) the conflict is much more layered and goes well beyond the simple black and white Dark Lord and his evil minions type of writing.

Not gonna happen, and GRRM, I think is not that suicidal, unless he really starts to hate ASOIAF. He breaks conventional high fantasy rules, or rather turns them upside down, but this he can't possibly hope to achieve in a satisfying and convincing manner for the readers. Some rules of writing have to be upheld, no matter what. And I think the presentation of the Others in the show speaks volumes about how they are meant to be perceived.

One only needs to look at the real world myths that GRRM has drawn inspiration from in creating the Others and his world in general, to see how satisfactory endings can be achieved within the parameteres of the story and without leaving the Others as a basic two dimensional cardboard villians.

[Toccs]

I figured I would ask this in heresy as you have gone over most everything here. Is there any proof or theories out there that the others killed Waymar and Will, to draw out the first ranger Benjen Stark, for his Stark blood? It isn't much to go on but it is always why I felt they killed them and let Gared go.

Personally, I'm still firmly in the camp that they let Gared live in order for him to lead the momma Direwolf through the Black Gate and into the North. Which is why Gared was caught only a short distance away from the Direwolf corpse.

[Black Crow]

:agree:

[Urrax]

A big question I have about the WW and Wights is "why now"?

I mean, we know they´ve been here before, then were forced to retreated (by men, heat, cotf, whatever...). After that, for centuries, they almost disappear. We have some mention of sporadic encounters north of the wall here and there, but they´ve quite calm for a long time. Summer and winters came and went.

But then THIS winter coming, they are coming back. Why?

We have Ygritte saying the wildings opened a lot of graves and let shades lose. That's the reason? That was all that was needed for them to come back? Couldn´t they (craster's son for example) dig themselves?

IMHO,it's part of the whole comeback of magic, which (IMHO) was kicked off by Summerhall.

[Lord Flashheart]

Personally, I'm still firmly in the camp that they let Gared live in order for him to lead the momma Direwolf through the Black Gate and into the North. Which is why Gared was caught only a short distance away from the Direwolf corpse.

That is an interesting thought, I have never really pondered how the direwolf made it through the wall but that makes sense.

ETA: are there different camps on why they let him live? Is one of them what I stated before about Benjen?

[Toccs]

ETA: are there different camps on why they let him live? Is one of them what I stated before about Benjen?

Probably, there usually seems to be many different camps on any given theory. I know that there is defintely the camp of "Gared was left alive in order to spread the word and cause panic" on this particualr issue.

I can't say that I have ever heard your theory about luring out Benjen before but I could be wrong. The biggest issue that I have with it, is that all the elements of it hinge on unknown knowledge. We really would need to know much more about the suspected Stark connection to the Others as well as what exactly did end up happening to Benjen, in order to really piece that together. It's not unreasonable that it could end up being true, as I said up thread "things can always change . . . especially when you least expect it", but personally, I don't like theories that are based so heavily off specualtion without a textual base to act as a foundation*.

* Though as with everybody, I am occasionally subject to confirmation bias.

[Locazo]

IMHO,it's part of the whole comeback of magic, which (IMHO) was kicked off by Summerhall.

But magic has been around until very recently compared with the WW retreat. I mean, the last WW big run was thousand of years ago, but magic was still around for more time. Consider that just 400 or 500 years ago dragons were common and easier to hacth, a lot more than now.

[Urrax]

But magic has been around until very recently compared with the WW retreat. I mean, the last WW big run was thousand of years ago, but magic was still around for more time. Consider that just 400 or 500 years ago dragons were common and easier to hacth, a lot more than now.

But it was in decline. Dragons died out, glass candles quit working, etc. Maesters, maybe others (Varys?) were working to shut it down. Then (IMHO!) it got a new lease on life from Summerhall.

[Urrax]

Personally, I'm still firmly in the camp that they let Gared live in order for him to lead the momma Direwolf through the Black Gate and into the North. Which is why Gared was caught only a short distance away from the Direwolf corpse.

Excellent point.

I still wonder about the stag horn in the momma. A natural event between two animals? Some symbolism of the Baratheons? A staghorn dagger?