Heresy 63

[Black Crow]

In A Sworn Sword there is an awful drought throughout Westeros. We are simply seeing a time where ice threatens Westeros--where we have an awful Winter rather than Summer. IMO the drought was worse than what we have seen of Winter, with the exception of the wights.

Adding to that there is Master Benero's statement on behalf of the Red lot:

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

Endless hot dry summer, wights everywhere...

[Black Crow]

I can see how having too much of them roaming around can be counter to the balance,but again if their existence is generational depending on the man that does the sacrifice what happens to them now that Craster is gone?

It is of course a good question, and the short answer is that they need to find an alternative source of supply of children with winter inside them. This, as we've discussed, may be the significance of Gilly's son, but presumably there are other candidates out there yet to be identified...

And no, I'm not suggesting names, but the Stark connection has to be considered.

[TheButcherCrow]

It would seem Jon's "baby swap" plan, which of course left Craster's (last?) son at The Wall, may end up being one of those "it seemed like such a good idea at the time" dealies.

[JonNonRegis]

1. Howland Reed. In another thread someone pointed out that the name of Howland Reed's wife as listed in the appendix of one of the books was Jyana. Awfully similar to Lyanna whom many believe was the mystery knight that stood up for Howland at the Harrenhal tournament. Now I can see Howland naming a daughter in honor of Lyanna, is it possible that Jyana could be both a daughter and a wife?

If the premise is that Howland is (like Craster) ponying up babies to the Others, it's hard to see how the Others are getting past the Wall and as far south as the Neck, to take possession.

But I agree the Lyanna/Jyana similarlty may be suggestive... just of a different thing.

To wit, if Ned's mother was a Reed (something I have suggested before), Lyanna's name might reflect that crannogman ancestry, just like Jyana's almost certainly does. That is, the yana usage for crannogwomen might be similar to the ae usage for Targaryens.

2. Oberyn Martell. Oberyn is a pretty interesting character. He is one of the few characters that has links to both the North and the South. He was fostered with

Anyway, it is interesting that Oberyn is said to have bastards all over Dorne and the Free Cities but they are all known to be female.

If Gerold Dayne is a male bastard of Oberyn's I wouldn't be at all surprised.

[Black Crow]

It would seem Jon's "baby swap" plan, which of course left Craster's (last?) son at The Wall, may end up being one of those "it seemed like such a good idea at the time" dealies.

An observation which has been made before of course and its very hard to avoid the suspicion that the only reason for the baby swap business was to ensure that young Monster stayed on the Wall - with Val.

[Lord Ravenstark]

An observation which has been made before of course and its very hard to avoid the suspicion that the only reason for the baby swap business was to ensure that young Monster stayed on the Wall - with Val.

How Jon would know recluse wildlings' customs?

[Frey family reunion]

If the premise is that Howland is (like Craster) ponying up babies to the Others, it's hard to see how the Others are getting past the Wall and as far south as the Neck, to take possession.

But I agree the Lyanna/Jyana similarlty may be suggestive... just of a different thing.

To wit, if Ned's mother was a Reed (something I have suggested before), Lyanna's name might reflect that crannogman ancestry, just like Jyana's almost certainly does. That is, the yana usage for crannogwomen might be similar to the ae usage for Targaryens.

Interesting notion, but as for your first point, I am suggesting that the Others may not be the only things that go bump in the night. If Howland is doing similar sacrifices I would assume it may be to create his own brand of monster. There is a chapter in ADWD where as Theon passes by the Children's Tower of Moat Cailin, he sees two pale faces peering at him through the broken masonry. He later learns that Dagon Codd went to the Children's Tower several days prior and only found two men still alive, who were eating the dead. Codd said he killed both men. If so, what was it that Theon saw staring at him in the tower?

If Gerold Dayne is a male bastard of Oberyn's I wouldn't be at all surprised.

Hmmm. Possible. Might explain Oberyn's statement in WOW about the fact he should have killed him earlier.

As an aside I had a crackpot notion that Gerold Dayne might be the illegitimate child of Gerold Hightower and Queen Rahella since he was born around the time of the Defiance at Duskendale, when Aerys and most of King's landing's attention would have been diverted for at least half a year. It would make a nice little allusion to Pasiphae,the wife of King Minos having a fling with a white bull and in some myths giving birth to the "starlike" Asterion also known as the Minotaur. Also I believe Queen Elizabeth I was rumored to have had a secret illegitimate child while Queen whose existence was kept hidden with the help of her handmaidens. But outside of Hightower suggesting that he personally escort Queen Rahella from the Harrenhall tournament instead of Jaime, there is little to suggest such an affair ever existed. It would however explain Darkstar's first name and his mane of silver hair (a feature shared by Mace's wife Alerie Hightower).

[Frey family reunion]

Interesting.

What did Varys mean in the epilogue to Dance, "For the children"? Did he just mean for the future inhabitants of the realm?

Good question. While I doubt that phrase is connected to the COTF, I did notice how it was a similar sentiment to Doran's as Doran was extolling the virtues of watching the children play in the water gardens.

[Black Crow]

How Jon would know recluse wildlings' customs?

He doesn't. I was talking about GRRM's positioning of characters and proposing that Monster is still on the Wall not because Jon thinks its a splendid idea to swap him but because GRRM wants him there.

[cealicu_ca]

Re: Varys' birds. Do you think he needs more because at a certain age he doesn't use them anymore? What happens to the old birds, does he just throw them on the street in flea bottom? That sounds dangerous. But he can't be killing them, that's not his nature. (IMO)

I seem to remember him saying something along those lines: Sometimes, to do what's best for the realm, we must allow terrible things like this (when talking about murdering Dany...). It might have been a mask of his, but I think he's fully capable of at least allowing, if not directly causing someone's death (someone who doesn't fit his plans that is).

[Black Crow]

If the premise is that Howland is (like Craster) ponying up babies to the Others, it's hard to see how the Others are getting past the Wall and as far south as the Neck, to take possession.

:agree: Appart from the practicalties there's absolutely no suggestion of this happening

But I agree the Lyanna/Jyana similarlty may be suggestive... just of a different thing.

To wit, if Ned's mother was a Reed (something I have suggested before), Lyanna's name might reflect that crannogman ancestry, just like Jyana's almost certainly does. That is, the yana usage for crannogwomen might be similar to the ae usage for Targaryens.

On the other hand I can't go with this one. In the first place if Ned's mother was a Reed, then Howland Reed would be described as his kinsman and likewise when Jojen the Creepy and his Sullen Sister come to pledge allegiance, it would be very hard to avoid mentioning that Bran's grandmother was Reed if this really was the case.

As to Lyanna, we noted a couple of Heresies back that she was known to her brothers as Lya, and what's reckoned to be one of GRRM's best works prior to ASoIF, is A Song for Lya; about a beautiful vibrant young girl who willingly joins a telepathic race called the Greeshka at the expence of losing her individuality. Its currently available in the first volume of the Dreamsongs colection.

[cealicu_ca]

It would seem Jon's "baby swap" plan, which of course left Craster's (last?) son at The Wall, may end up being one of those "it seemed like such a good idea at the time" dealies.

LOL, I had the same "hmmm... wouldn't it be ironic to [...]" moment when I read that part :))

[avernite]

Adding to that there is Master Benero's statement on behalf of the Red lot:

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

Endless hot dry summer, wights everywhere...

It might be wights, which if they're of the Moqorro/Melisandre variety is pretty good compared to being dead, I suppose.

And an endless summer sounds brilliant. The Westerosi have been harvesting all over this long summer, and hoped to have the food stores to go with that for the winter.

As to the bit about the drought: I agree, heat is not all good. But still, freezing cold, be it snowy or not. is horrid. Tropical heat is only horrible when not coupled with rain, otherwise it's fairly good to live in. Sweden is and was a lot less inhabited than, say, Egypt, precisely because humans and plants can handle a lot of heat compared to how much cold they can stand.

In the song of ice and fire we can make a balance between white walkers and dragonfire, and humans would like something far from both. But if we make a scale from white walkers to Melisandre and other red priests, humans would choose the red priests every time. Which implies that Melisandre isn't fire made flesh in the same way the WW are ice made flesh.

Unless we go with the position that, for humans, Others are still a horrible enemy despite not being evil.

[JonNonRegis]

if Ned's mother was a Reed, then Howland Reed would be described as his kinsman and likewise when Jojen the Creepy and his Sullen Sister come to pledge allegiance, it would be very hard to avoid mentioning that Bran's grandmother was Reed if this really was the case.

Yeah, these are my own objections to the idea. Still, I can't come up with a better candidate.

I do think the relative invisibility of Ned's mother isn't just... an oversight on GRRM's part. I recall a SSM in which somebody asked him "Who was Ned's mother and what happened to her?" and GRRM replied "She was Lady Stark. She died."

Now, really. I ask you.

[Black Crow]

It might be wights, which if they're of the Moqorro/Melisandre variety is pretty good compared to being dead, I suppose

I was reading it more as the Beric Dondarrion/Catelyn Stark wights, rather than the Fire made flesh priests like Mel.

[Black Crow]

In the song of ice and fire we can make a balance between white walkers and dragonfire, and humans would like something far from both. But if we make a scale from white walkers to Melisandre and other red priests, humans would choose the red priests every time. Which implies that Melisandre isn't fire made flesh in the same way the WW are ice made flesh.

Ah, but the point here is that the evidence quite clearly shows Mel and Moqorro (and partially at least, Victarion) are indeed Fire made Flesh:

First Mel’s POV in ADwD:

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Closely followed first by one of Dany’s amazing dragons:

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped on to the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

In both we have examples of fire made flesh, or perhaps in Mel’s case the other way around. Then Victarion provides another: In a sea fight off the Shields he gets a relatively minor cut to his left hand which ought to have been shrugged off but instead turns badly infected and notwithstanding constant debridement and disinfection is getting steadily worse. Then in the chapter entitled The Iron Captain along comes Moqorro, still apparently alive and well after 10 days drifting in the ocean clinging to a spar. I can help you says he, but it will hurt. Victarion, being ironborn, says he can take it.

Now this is a Victarion POV but quite suddenly the perspective changes:

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and made... Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers...

There are two points of interest here, first and perhaps most obviously we have the fire made flesh thing (or perhaps the other way around) which is also evident in the later Victarion chapters, and secondly there's that curious switch in perspective.

In other words Victarion may no longer be human and as we see in his next POV although his arm has been “healed” and is stronger than ever his skin is like pork crackling and sometimes splits and smokes. Somehow he appears oblivious to this.

As to Moqorro :

The firelight made his black skin shine like polished onyx, and sometimes Victarion could swear that the flames tattooed on his face were dancing too, twisting and bending, melting into one another, their colours changing with every turn of the priest's head.

Clearly a glamour in operation here, like Mel's

[avernite]

I see my meaning was unclear.

If the red lot are supposed to be the equivalent fire made flesh to the Others' ice made flesh... why would ANYONE want balance? Throw out the damn others and keep the red priests who haven't done anything too terribly scary (at least on-screen. The shadow baby thing is admittedly a bit scary).

And so, too, the Others would seem the clear bad guys. Sure, a dragon is a terribly destructive ice-made-flesh which even ate one whole girl... but the Others were killing them by the dozen, getting cute little wildling boys sacrificed to them too. If their evilness is counted against the red priests, the Others clearly seem Evil.

[Frey family reunion]

:agree: Appart from the practicalties there's absolutely no suggestion of this happening

On the other hand I can't go with this one. In the first place if Ned's mother was a Reed, then Howland Reed would be described as his kinsman and likewise when Jojen the Creepy and his Sullen Sister come to pledge allegiance, it would be very hard to avoid mentioning that Bran's grandmother was Reed if this really was the case.

As to Lyanna, we noted a couple of Heresies back that she was known to her brothers as Lya, and what's reckoned to be one of GRRM's best works prior to ASoIF, is A Song for Lya; about a beautiful vibrant young girl who willingly joins a telepathic race called the Greeshka at the expence of losing her individuality. Its currently available in the first volume of the Dreamsongs colection.

My point wasn't why Martin named her Lyanna (obviously Martin is partial to this name) my point was how coincidental it was that Howland's wife is named Jyana. It would seem more likely that Howland would give a daughter that name in honor of Lyanna. But granted complete speculation.

[Black Crow]

I see my meaning was unclear.

If the red lot are supposed to be the equivalent fire made flesh to the Others' ice made flesh... why would ANYONE want balance? Throw out the damn others and keep the red priests who haven't done anything too terribly scary (at least on-screen. The shadow baby thing is admittedly a bit scary).

And so, too, the Others would seem the clear bad guys. Sure, a dragon is a terribly destructive ice-made-flesh which even ate one whole girl... but the Others were killing them by the dozen, getting cute little wildling boys sacrificed to them too. If their evilness is counted against the red priests, the Others clearly seem Evil.

Can I suggest you immerse yourself in heresy a little longer. Although we don't always agree, the point of this thread is to get below the surface and avoid simply labelling the Otherlanders as Evil and the Red Lot as a lesser Evil. GRRM doesn't do evil and what we're doing here is trying to figure out what's really going on. Things are not what they seem, especially when it comes to the "sacrificing" and Craster's sons.

[avernite]

Can I suggest you immerse yourself in heresy a little longer. Although we don't always agree, the point of this thread is to get below the surface and avoid simply labelling the Otherlanders as Evil and the Red Lot as a lesser Evil. GRRM doesn't do evil and what we're doing here is trying to figure out what's really going on. Things are not what they seem, especially when it comes to the "sacrificing" and Craster's sons.

The sacrificing not, mayhaps. What's really going on there is a bit unclear.

But Tormund makes pretty clear what the others did do: cull the wildlings, killing some every night. The lords of Westeros aren't much better, I admit, but the red priests? What have they ever done that might label them clearly evil rather than religious fanatic?

You claim GRRM doesn't do evil, but that is the precise problem I have with the seemingly common heretical idea that ice and fire are sort of equal: the Others come across as clearly more evil, at least from the viewpoint of men. Not a very objective standard, i grant that, but still... humans make up the vast majority of the book's cast.

So I'm looking for an argument (or a link to an argument, in the 62 earlier threads) WHY you think GRRM doesn't do evil, and how to then explain the inconsistency in outcome: Others drive out a whole people and seemingly threaten to wipe them out, Red Priests help one lord against other lords.