How will History Remember Robb Stark - The King who Rose?

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Yeah, I have to agree. The freys had plenty of reason to be upset with robb for this honestly. They lost men fighting for him, and he kind of just shitted on them.

If by "shitted" you mean "compensated them more than justly for any wrong he committed" then yeah, you're right. Especially since the original contract was gained by extortion and gross dereliction of duty to a liege lord by the Freys.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

He'll become some larger than life figure. Paul Bunyan like. He'll be remembered as a boy who became King to avenge his father, kicked major butt in every battle but lost it all for love. Betrayed by friends. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, it'll make a good story.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If by "shitted" you mean "compensated them more than justly for any wrong he committed" then yeah, you're right. Especially since the original contract was gained by extortion and gross dereliction of duty to a liege lord by the Freys.

I think this gets lost in the mix — the Tullys as the Freys' overlords could and maybe should have simply ordered them to allow Robb and his men to cross the river.

[Lace Tyrell]

Not to mention the other group who'll think of him as "The King who left a bloody big mess that Stannis the Mannis had to clear up," but they'll mostly be on these forums.

THIS. :lol:

[Lace Tyrell]

Why? If Robb didn't break his word with Walder, he most likely would still have been alive and had an army even after Tywin was dead. He didn;t have to marry until the war was over. Why would Walder plot against him and execute such a devious plan if one of his daughters was to become Queen of the North, the best match Frey could ever hope for.

Frey wanted Riverrun. So his end game would always be siding with Tywin.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

I think this gets lost in the mix — the Tullys as the Freys' overlords could and maybe should have simply ordered them to allow Robb and his men to cross the river.

I dont have my copy of AGoT with me, but didnt Edmure call the banners and was gathering his forces before Jaime beat him outside Riverrun? Hence Frey should have already had his forces there?

Either way, allowing reinforcements for your liege through your territory shouldnt be something your liege-lord needs to tell you to do. It's an implied duty. Edmure shouldnt have had to tell him to let Robb through. If he did send an explicit order, I have a feeling Lord Walder would have just pretended the raven got shot down or something.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

I dont have my copy of AGoT with me, but didnt Edmure call the banners and was gathering his forces before Jaime beat him outside Riverrun? Hence Frey should have already had his forces there?

Either way, allowing reinforcements for your liege through your territory shouldnt be something your liege-lord needs to tell you to do. It's an implied duty. Edmure shouldnt have had to tell him to let Robb through. If he did send an explicit order, I have a feeling Lord Walder would have just pretended the raven got shot down or something.

Walder outright says something about it not being his fault that Edmure got into a fight and got captured before the Freys could gather their levies.

[Strong Flame]

Yeah, I'm on board with him being remembered as a folk hero, regardless of who takes the IT or if the IT even exists. Though It will happen stronger and quicker if the North finally and fully succeeds in its sucession.

I think GRRM has left it to be one of the those things that we hear differently from each angle and perspective, but I think given time we would see even the south remembering Robb in a romantic way as a hero king of song. I think under any ruler, his tale is just too juicy a setup for song to pass on for Northerners aand smallfolk alike. Also to the idea of Dany still thinking of Ned Stark as the usurper's dog, I think (hope) she will learn to have a little more rounded view of what happened, to have to deal (more than she has so far) with the complicated situation that was her father's downfall. That while Ned was part of it, that he also broke with Tywin and Robert in the deaths of the other Targs and the reasons of R+L that drove king bob and ol' neddyboy to their grim path of war.

I also think that the follies of Robb that we all clearly see as illogolical will be glossed over as romance and people will just think of him as more tragic and as a doomed love story within the greater fable of the KIng Who Rose

[louzeyre]

The King that marched the wrong way? I think it will depend not only on who wins the thrones, but also what happens with the others.If there is another long night and a major war in the North against the others, the war of the five kings may be more or less forgotten or thought of as being a distraction that cost the north a lot of good men when they needed them. Rob might be Southerner in wolf clothing that marched south to protect his mother's land and left the north open for attack. But if it isn't a long or large war... then he'll probably be remembered as a romanticized hero.

[thesmilingspider]

Forever and ever the Young Wolf. His military successes will be remembered, but ultimately, he was too brash and young and green. But I think he'd be remembered as another example of a Stark being exemplary of the 'rugged individualism' (sorry) of the North. Since I think the Starks, be it Rickon or Sansa etc will eventually come out on top, he'll probably be referenced with his siblings' successes and failures.

[Ser Greg of House House]

It all comes down to whether the North will be a independent kingdom or not. If so, he will be remembered forever. If not, just another tale.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Walder outright says something about it not being his fault that Edmure got into a fight and got captured before the Freys could gather their levies.

Mmm. Im sure that Walder gathered them as quick as he could. Especially considering that Robb was able to make it from Winterfell to the Twins just as he'd finished gathering them. Either way, he still shouldnt have needed to be bribed to open his gates.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Mmm. Im sure that Walder gathered them as quick as he could. Especially considering that Robb was able to make it from Winterfell to the Twins just as he'd finished gathering them. Either way, he still shouldnt have needed to be bribed to open his gates.

And the Lannisters were already sacking the Riverlands at that point, I think. The Freys should have let Robb through, no questions asked, by virtue of that alone, and sent levies to assist Edmure.

[Chaircat Meow]

The situation with Frey bridge is what you can get away with. Lords take oaths both to their kings, and their LPs. The king, no doubt, assumes he should take precedence, while the LP has different ideas. A strong LP can force his banners to obey him, not the distant monarch, but a weak one, or one just defeated militarily (like Edmure) is less likely to be obeyed. Negotiating allegiance, rather than expecting it as of right, is something all realistic lords and ladies have to come to terms with.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

The situation with Frey bridge is what you can get away with. Lords take oaths both to their kings, and their LPs. The king, no doubt, assumes he should take precedence, while the LP has different ideas. A strong LP can force his banners to obey him, not the distant monarch, but a weak one, or one just defeated militarily (like Edmure) is less likely to be obeyed. Negotiating allegiance, rather than expecting it as of right, is something all realistic lords and ladies have to come to terms with.

Painting it as a choice between his liege and his King can be viewed as incorrect though.

There were no forces under the King's Banner in the Riverlands at that point, after Dondarrion's band had been initially scattered.

It was not, at that point, a large scale rebellion, but regional dispute between the Riverlands and the Westerlands, with the King not even involved. Eddard Stark was still alive, and the point of no return had not been reached yet, for any parties.

For Walder Frey to state the reason for him not assisting his liege lord as his oath to the King is a poor excuse. His liege lord isnt being attacked by the King, he is being attacked by the Lannisters. The King is, for all intents and purposes, at that point viewed as a Baratheon.

Whether you think Walder Frey's bridge shenanigans are a scummy extortion or sound politicking, either way, he got what he was promised in the end, a marriage to a Lord Paramount, and still took revenge.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Whether you think Walder Frey's bridge shenanigans are a scummy extortion or sound politicking, either way, he got what he was promised in the end, a marriage to a Lord Paramount, and still took revenge.

I hadn't really thought of it that way, but you're right — the marriage Robb offered with Edmure was on pretty much the exact same level politically as the one Walder was originally promised, because Robb wasn't a king yet.

I think Hoster Tully would have done well to knock the Freys down a peg after Robert's Rebellion. The Darrys lost a lot of their power for being on the wrong side; the Freys should've been punished for ignoring their lord paramount.

[Chaircat Meow]

Painting it as a choice between his liege and his King can be viewed as incorrect though.

There were no forces under the King's Banner in the Riverlands at that point, after Dondarrion's band had been initially scattered.

It was not, at that point, a large scale rebellion, but regional dispute between the Riverlands and the Westerlands, with the King not even involved. Eddard Stark was still alive, and the point of no return had not been reached yet, for any parties.

For Walder Frey to state the reason for him not assisting his liege lord as his oath to the King is a poor excuse. His liege lord isnt being attacked by the King, he is being attacked by the Lannisters. The King is, for all intents and purposes, at that point viewed as a Baratheon.

Whether you think Walder Frey's bridge shenanigans are a scummy extortion or sound politicking, either way, he got what he was promised in the end, a marriage to a Lord Paramount, and still took revenge.

well, I meant later, when he deals with Robb. Then lord Tywin was hand of the king.

However, yes, Frey didn't respond initially. Neither, weirdly, did Jason Mallister, as far as I can make out. Not sure why that is. But yea, untrustworthy bannermen are going to let you down.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

well, I meant later, when he deals with Robb. Then lord Tywin was hand of the king.

However, yes, Frey didn't respond initially. Neither, weirdly, did Jason Mallister, as far as I can make out. Not sure why that is. But yea, untrustworthy bannermen are going to let you down.

Ah fair enough, my mistake.

Yeah thats true about Mallister, however, he does come of his own volition after Robb passes through the Twins without being bribed.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

I hadn't really thought of it that way, but you're right — the marriage Robb offered with Edmure was on pretty much the exact same level politically as the one Walder was originally promised, because Robb wasn't a king yet.

I think Hoster Tully would have done well to knock the Freys down a peg after Robert's Rebellion. The Darrys lost a lot of their power for being on the wrong side; the Freys should've been punished for ignoring their lord paramount.

The exact same level, and one which had the opportunity to benefit the Frey family far more in the long run. Every Frey in the Riverlands could have reaped the benefits of a half Frey lord of riverrun. I'm not sure the benefits from a half Frey lord of the north are as good when compared.

[shearstone]

well, I meant later, when he deals with Robb. Then lord Tywin was hand of the king.

However, yes, Frey didn't respond initially. Neither, weirdly, did Jason Mallister, as far as I can make out. Not sure why that is. But yea, untrustworthy bannermen are going to let you down.

Maybe Mallister stopped off at some lords keep in the Crownlands/Eastern Riverlands or stayed at court after the Hands Tourney and didn't get home quick enough to raise his levies until he heard Robb was coming and waited for him in order to join their forces. I have no real evidence for this but owing to Mallister's later loyalty to Robb and Jason being an all round badass I can't imagine he'd ignore a call to arms lake dear old Walder.