What if Stannis had been the older brother?

[Frequency]

Stannis is right now the older (or rather, last brother) Baratheon. In this forum we all love and respect his cause being a just one. But what if he had been older than Robert? Being fostered by Jon Arryn alongside Ned Stark and promised to Lyanna. Might be he had developed a bond with Ned, being an honorable lad and started a rebellion not for Lyanna's heart, but as his duty. I could see Robert defending Storm's End and winning the Tyrells to the rebellion or destroying them in combat. Maybe the battle of the Trident would have ended differently, as we know Stannis is not the fighter his brother was.

More interestingly, after the war, would he have taken Cersei as his wife? Duty, aye, but Lannisters were not truly loyal to anyone. Besides that, a Stannis' rule of the seven kingdoms has been discussed before if he wins the war, but here his decisions might have been terribly different.

[Shadrich]

Robert found it very easy to make friends and allies (Grandison etc.). Stannis probably not so much. The war would look very differently I imagine, I think Stannis could possibly die at Battle of the Bells (Robert has only survived because he was hiding in a brothel), or even earlier.

If however he were to win the rebellion - he would be crowned the King (by having Targaryen blood), and I can imagine him either executing Jaime, or sending him to the wall. I doubt he would marry Cersei. It's hard to say what he would do with Tywin - though most likely he would not be pleased.

[Blutraven]

We can't really say how the war would be different (Stannis might not have won the Battle of Summerhall but could have won the Battle of Ashford etc). Robert might have been able to win the Tyrells to his side and then team up with the rest of the rebels giving them a swifter victory.

I doubt he'd take Cersei for his wife, he'd be pissed at Tywin for having children killed, he could marry someone from Dorne to improve relations with them. Jaime would either have been killed or sent to the Wall.

It's interesting as to whether he'd make friends with Ned, I think they're a bit to similar to make as close a bond as Ned and Robert had but I think they'd still like each other, it could be that the Siege of Storms End was what made Stannis so determined (or at least, heightened it).

[Naathi Prince]

Does Lyanna still run away with Rhaegar if its Stannis? Her primary objection to Robert was his penchant for sleeping around. After that, you still have tons of counter-factuals. How does the battle of Summerhall go with Stannis instead of Robert, or does Stannis send Robert with their army to fight that battle? How about the Battle of the Bells, does Stannis still manage to get cover in a brothel and avoid Jon Connington?

[ImpinAintEasy]

Does Lyanna still run away with Rhaegar if its Stannis?

I'd say yes.

It seems to me that being married to Stannis would be like be married to a rock.

Except that rocks don't grind their teeth and chop off your finger tips for saving them from starving to death.

[Morienthar]

He and Ned would never get along as well as Ned and Bob did.

The war would go more or less the same,But I don't think Stannis wouldn't have fought in the front lines on the Trident,Rhaegar might not have been killed,Bob would probably hold Storms End with some difficulty.

Stannis would probably end up married to Arrianne or Cersei(Either way a miserable marriage)

Stannis would still have been killed some how and the war of the 5 kings would start again.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

During the Rebellion, They still would have chosen Robert to be their king because Stannis is such a stiff

[Victor227]

It's rather interesting isn't it, how the three Baratheon brothers all embody so many separate amazing traits, but are extreme enough in them that every other aspect tends to wind up neglected?

Shame the Robert-Stannis-Renly Barath-o-morph never became King.

[MotherAnduin]

Does Lyanna still run away with Rhaegar if its Stannis? Her primary objection to Robert was his penchant for sleeping around. After that, you still have tons of counter-factuals. How does the battle of Summerhall go with Stannis instead of Robert, or does Stannis send Robert with their army to fight that battle? How about the Battle of the Bells, does Stannis still manage to get cover in a brothel and avoid Jon Connington?

Lyanna's main problem with Robert was that he wasn't Rhaegar. Lyanna wasn't bothered that much with marriage vows as she ran away with a married man. Stannis would face the same problem of not being Rhaegar. So, yes Lyanna would have ran away.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Stannis winning three battles in a day? Okay, thats plausible, he's sensible enough and would understand the merits of divide and conquer, the people that saved Bob at the Bells would save him because they were all in it together, however Stannis's penchant for executing those who stood against him (he seemed more rigid back then than now) would have counted against him in the long run and he might not have even fought Rheagar. And Robert sitting tight without fighting for a year while Stannis was fighting? Not likely, those gates would've come crashing down and Robert would've been fighting the entire Tyrell army, leading to the fall of Storms End and porbable complete end of Stannis' support. The brothers Baratheon won that war because Robert was in the right situation to be bold and Stannis was the best man for the job at Storms End.

[Light a wight tonight]

Lyanna not being engaged to Robert and repelled by the prospect changes the entire dynamic of the story. The Mannis is at worst boring. Lyanna wouldn't have the same incentive to run off with Rhaegar, so she probably wouldn't. No reason for Brandon to challenge Rhaegar to fight, no cause to execute Brandon and Rickard, no reason for a rebellion, no ISoIaF.

[The Dornish Direwolf]

You are all looking at this wrong. If Stannis was the older brother, it would be King Rhaegar, first of his name, King of the Andals and the First Men, and the Rhoynar sitting on the Iron Throne.

Stannis would never have started a rebellion himself. He said choosing Robert over Aerys II was the hardest choice of his life. I strongly believe he would have swallowed whatever perverted justice Aerys served the lords, as he was his rightful King.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

It really isn't easy to answer this question because we don't know enough about the history of Westeros before Bobert's rebellion.

We don't know for example anything about the circumstances under which Rhaegar and Lyanna's coupling happened. Did they elope? Was it inevitable? Was it because Lyanna didn't want Robert?

All we can go by is Ned's thought's on Rhaegar, which makes me believe that it would have happened regardless of who Lyanna's husband was, but that's only a guess.

Then we don't know enough about how Robert ended up at the Vale. Robert and Stannis were at Storm's End when they saw their parents' ship sink. Was it agreed in advance with Steffon that Robert would be fostered at the Vale or did Robert go there on his own? I am guessing the latter and there is no reason to believe Stannis would have done the same if he was the heir.

Then we're forgetting that Robert's and Stan's personalities have to some extent been shaped by them being first and second son respectively. Bobert feels entitled: he feels he can do whatever the hell he wants. Stannis on the other hand has a massive chip on his shoulder. If Stannis is the heir, he is probably a little more relaxed and Robert a little more humble.

So with all that in mind, I will assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna would happen. I will also assume that Robert was still fostered at the Vale, not Stannis. Stannis, like a good lord, stays at Storm's End.

- Aerys kills the Starks and asks for the heads of Ned and Stannis (who is Lyanna's fiance). Stannis like the Dornish Direwolf said would feel his duty is to serve the King, but what is he supposed to do in that case? Go to King's Landing and swear fealty to the King and claim he is not working with the Starks? Does he ask Aerys to punish Rhaegar for stealing his betrothed? It's hard to tell. But I really don't think Stannis would have rebelled against his King.

If Robert wasn't betrothed to Lyanna but was still Jon Arryn's ward, does he marry Lysa instead? And can they win the war if it's only the North+the Vale+the Riverlands against the Mad King?

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I have another question: Why are we all so sure Stannis would be betrothed to Lyanna? Robert was big, strong and loud. He fit the stereotype of a good husband that the Starks would approve of. Stannis is nothing like that. Plus, I bet Robert met Lyanna through Ned. If Robert was the second son and not the Lord of Storm's End, would the Starks really agree to a marriage between Robert and Lyanna? And if Robert asked to marry Lyanna and was rejected, wouldn't that sour his relationship with Ned?

I think everything would have been so, so different if Stannis was the heir.

[Martini Sigil]

if Stannis were the older brother, Rhaegar woud be king

[ejhawman]

I think of this as "What if Robert's and Stannis' book personalities were switched?" For discussion we can also switch the names.

I agree Stannis, as elder, wouldn't openly rebel. He likely wouldn't be so close to the Starks, and so probably wouldn't get betrothed to Lyanna. Possibly Robert the Mid-child and Renly, still youngest, would go over to the Starks, possibly not. His bannermen might be lured away if they go Stark, sidelining him. But his absence from the field would be telling.

Most likely the rebellion fails and Aerys stays king. As of 300 AL he may have died naturally and Rhaegar sits the IT.

If, by some strange twist, there is still a rebellion and the Targaryens are still overthrown, he would be a loyalist and sent to the Wall or dying in battle. Robert still becomes king, but now Stannis is not there to be AAR. Maybe Melisandre sees AAR in Robert, who would be more enthusiastic about it. But he may not have married Selyse Florent, so his wife may not convert to R'hllor, and there would be tension in the household. If he still married Cersei, Mel would probably be the one to investigate the incest possibility, would have a different set of tools for doing so, and no compunctions against assassinating her before approaching Robert with her claim that he was AAR.

In the last analysis, if by some weird twist Stannis was king at the start of AGOT, he would not want to marry Cersei. He would most likely have sent Jaime to the Wall or the headsman, so she would not want to marry him; if Jaime is dead, she may drink poison to be with him. A King Stannis would be more likely to detect cuckoldry by his queen before it became a problem, though that could lead to a different start for a war of succession.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

It's interesting and although I do agree with another poster here that Stannis and Robert's personalities are in part shaped by having been born second and first, I am still inclined to believe that he would still have that massive chip on his shoulder - possibly not as much but I reckon it'd still be there. We need only witness the dynamics between Renly and Stannis after Robert is dead to gauge that.

Had Stannis have been the firstborn, I think he would still be angry at something or someone as he has hitherto been - he might have been constantly suspicious of Robert and Renly and have imagined that the pair were constantly conspiring against him in order to usurp his position. The fact is that Stannis and Robert are fundamentally different - Stannis has no charisma unlike the other two brothers. Renly is even further down the pecking order in terms of the Baratheon succession, yet he still seems to take after Robert in many ways.

It is interesting to ponder what Lyanna might have done had she been engaged to Stannis rather than Rhaegar. Robert's tendency for infidelity is cited by her as a major reason (or an excuse) for opposing her forthcoming marriage, so I doubt it can be discounted whether or not she would have run off with Rhaegar, but I am guessing that she might have found some other excuse to oppose Stannis, because her relationship with Rhaegar appears fated.

Now, I am in agreement that Stannis might not have willingly opposed his King. However, had Lyanna have run off with Rhaegar, it is still plausible that Brandon (having discovered about his sister having been "kidnapped" by a hostile source such as Varys - as some have speculated) would still have reacted in the same manner as he did regardless. That incident would have led to Aerys burning Rickon and Brandon. Regardless of whether Stannis would have been fostered out in the Vale in this incident, I still foresee that Aerys might have called for Ned and Stannis' heads, which in turn would have led to the war.

What I do question is, would Stannis have fought Rhaegar on the Battle of Trident, or would he have come to some sort of settlement, such as supporting Rhaegar's claim to the throne in return for peace and deposing Aerys?

He seems to have a more deep rooted sense of respect for the notion of the legitimacy of the succession so I foresee that this is something he would at least consider. I guess it would depend also on how Stannis personally felt about Lyanna; part of Robert's motivation (allegedly - and apart from a lust of power) was that he was supposedly in love with her. What if Stannis just viewed his forthcoming nuptials as a marriage of convenience and nothing more? Also, Stannis seems to be much more switched on and more intelligent than Robert - he managed to work out the true parentage of Cersei's children along with Jon Arryn, Robert doesn't seem to have ever been able to work this out despite having been married to her, so I am guessing that Stannis would realise that Lyanna willingly absconded with Rhaegar.

Given these considerations, I think it's plausible that he might have allowed for the nullification of his betrothal to Lyanna and perhaps pursued another wife and supported Rhaegar's claim to the throne.

Had he have defeated Rhaegar at the Trident, I would find it hard to envisage him marrying Cersei thereafter and allying himself with the Lannisters. As many other posters have pointed out, he would not have been happy with Tywin's actions. He might have opposed the marriage and allied himself with Dorne or Highgarden instead which could have caused a war regardless, because if Robert had designs on the throne, he might have allied himself with the Lannisters to overthrow his brother.

Alternatively, Stannis might have accepted the Lannister alliance begrudgingly, grumbling all the while. But one thing's for sure, I doubt Cersei would have been able to pull the wool over Stannis' eyes with regards to her incest as she had done with Robert - Stannis would likely have found out and used this as a useful bargaining tool to rid himself of the Lannisters without the need for bloodshed or a political scandal.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Most likely the rebellion fails and Aerys stays king. As of 300 AL he may have died naturally and Rhaegar sits the IT.

Or deposed by Rhaegar and Tywin.