Could Rhaego be alive?

[Stoned Dragon]

Rhaego's probably dead dead.

It take a blood sacrifice from two kings, first the father and then the son, to wake dragons from stone -- at least, according to Melisandre and her men. When MMD performed her ritual, I believe she purposefully exchanged Rhaego's life for Drogo's, knowing that an unborn child couldn't fully animate Drogo's body.

When Dany smothered Drogo, she not only killed her husband, she also killed the spirit animating him -- Rhaego. She then burned their bodies in the fire with the eggs, unwittingly providing the ingredients Melisandre claimed were necessary to hatch a "stone dragon" for Stannis.

I don't think Rhaego can't come back because it was his death (and Drogo's) that paid for the dragons' lives.

EDIT:

Another light argument/question; Is the "Stallion who Mount the World" prophecy the only one in the books that is now wrong(no chance of happening before the end of the series)?

Assuming Rhaego's death helped pay for the dragons' lives, I think it probably just changed the protagonist. Instead of Rhaego raining down destruction and uniting all the khalisars, it will be Drogon, animated by Rhaego and Drogo's deaths and bonded to the would-have-been-Stallion's mother, that will fulfill the prophesy. I think that's why she'll end up visiting the crones and the sacred city (fulfilling the HotU prophesy) -- because she's uniting all the khalisars there (which is the city's entire purpose -- to be large enough to receive every Dothraki when it came time to unite behind the Stallion).

The Daughter of Death Prophecy tell us Dany will visit Vaes Dothrak once again.

Right now she is the closest to that place (still far away but even clumsy dragon riding is fast) since 4 books and i doubt she will get another occasion to visit it before the end. If she isnt captured, why would she go there willingly? Meereen is in struggling and with all her new fire and blood inner toughts, why would she decide to fly away from it? She doesnt need more Dothraki, she has a nuclear bomb (drogon) and is "improving" using it. She has a personal grudge against Mago and Jhaqo and they will propably negociate their way out of this situation;

Informations about her son, Rhaego, being raised by the crones at Vaes Dothraki.

Again, if she isnt captured, I dont see any other good explaination for a trip to Vaes Dothraki right now in the story.

I don't think that's the only reason Dany would go to Vaes Dothrak again -- she just had her "fire and blood" revelation and she now remembers that her true goal is Westeros. After she conquers one khalisar, what's stopping her from just flying around -- uniting all of them on a steady march West that eventually takes her to the free cities. In Tyrion's chapters from ADwD, we learn that Dothraki are moving West already and threatening some of the free cities. Dany finding out (or just taking advantage of) the Stallion prophesy, heading to Vaes Dothrak to have it proclaimed officially by the crones, and then heading West seems more likely that Rhaego being alive still.

[Irresistable]

“Monstrous,” Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany

understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more

dangerous. “Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of

a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off

the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for

years.”

this description reminds me of all the 7 kingdoms talking about how Tywin Lannister gave birth to a baby with fangs and a tail etc.

[MasterJack]

Rhaego's probably dead dead.

It take a blood sacrifice from two kings, first the father and then the son, to wake dragons from stone -- at least, according to Melisandre and her men. When MMD performed her ritual, I believe she purposefully exchanged Rhaego's life for Drogo's, knowing that an unborn child couldn't fully animate Drogo's body.

When Dany smothered Drogo, she not only killed her husband, she also killed the spirit animating him -- Rhaego. She then burned their bodies in the fire with the eggs, unwittingly providing the ingredients Melisandre claimed were necessary to hatch a "stone dragon" for Stannis.

I don't think Rhaego can't come back because it was his death (and Drogo's) that paid for the dragons' lives.

Possible, yet it is not known what is necessary for Dragons to be born, 2kings died too at summerhall and they were really trying to hatch dragons. Bloods sacrifice may have little to do with it since saying spirits and all were still around the pyre and it counted as sacrifice is a little weak(yet possible). MMD spells, just good timing, or only because the world started to accept back Magical creatures (Others and Direwolf were back before the hatching). Who knows, right now you could maybe throw any dragon egg into an intense fire and hatch dragon.

[Stoned Dragon]

Possible, yet it is not known what is necessary for Dragons to be born, 2kings died too at summerhall and they were really trying to hatch dragons. Bloods sacrifice may have little to do with it since saying spirits and all were still around the pyre and it counted as sacrifice is a little weak(yet possible). MMD spells, just good timing, or only because the world started to accept back Magical creatures (Others and Direwolf were back before the hatching). Who knows, right now you could maybe throw any dragon egg into an intense fire and hatch dragon.

But Summerhall did hatch a dragon -- Rhaegar was born the day Summerhall burned. We know that two Kings (the Father, King Aegon V and the son, Prince Duncan), a witch (Ghost of High Heart), and fire were used in an attempt to wake dragons dragons at Summerhall, but that something went wrong and instead of literal dragons hatching Rhaegar was born instead (and his mother died in child birth).

At Dany's funeral pyre, Dany also hatched dragons using similar ingredients: and King and his son (Drogo/Rhaego dead body), a witch (MMD), dragon eggs, and fire -- but this time something happened, the witch died instead of the mother, and literal dragons were hatched. Obviously this all just speculation, but I'd keep an eye out for Jon Snow's funeral pyre in the next book -- I'm betting that when you combine Stannis/Shireen, Melisandre, a funeral pyre, and a dead (unhatched) dragon (Jon Snow) you end up with a Jon Snow resurrection.

[Raksha the Demon]

Except that Rhaegar's mother did not die in childbirth, she lived many more years and had two more children, dying in the birth of her third and last, Daenerys. Unless you mean that Rhaegar's mother was a sacrifice many years after his own 'hatching'?

[ache]

My initial thoughts when I first read that chapter were that Mirri was full of shit, right from the start. I thought that she poisoned Drogo through his wound and he ended up as he was intended to from the beginning. All the rest was a show put on to place Daenerys in the position of feeling responsible for what happened to her husband and son. The description of the baby sounded lame and fake and it's too convenient that nobody reliable apparently saw the body. I think it's possible that the baby was stolen - he was connected to a powerful prophecy and some might think controlling rather than killing the subject of such a prophecy would be worthwhile.

[NoneofYourBiz]

I'm not entirely sure what to make of the whole Rhaego thing but I have always thought his story was odd. One, the nobody saw his body thing...except MMD. Her weird description of him and her assertion that he had been dead for years. WTF? I have also always been confused by the HotU Rhaego vision...why would they show her a glimpse of "what could have been". Maybe they were showing Dany what she sacrificed in order to birth her dragons, but it just seemed off to me. Were any of the other visions of "what could have been"? Without going back to check, it seems like all the other visions were of what has already happened or what would happen in the future.

However, the recent revelation in TPatQ that there was a somewhat similarly deformed baby adds a whole new level of "am I supposed to make a connection here?" that I can't figure out.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

I hope he isn' t dead, I hope he lives because he sounded cool. Maybe he is the Great Others servant beyond Westeros, like the re priest on Victarion's ship is the Red God's greatest servant beyond Westeros. Crackpot Idea: maybe the "he's been dead for years", means the witch sent him back in time to a time that needed him, and he already has mounted the world. Maybe he is the cause of the Doom of Valyria and now he has been dead for many years probably not, but I hope he is alive right now

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I initially labelled this crackpot, do not read and moved on. But you have presented a very convincing argument, well done. Regardless, I do not believe Rhaego is alive, more is the pity :(

But 10/10 for effort :)

[Lost Melnibonean]

No: --Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. "What is it? I must know. Drogo . . . and my child." Why had she not remembered the child until now? "My son . . . Rhaego . . . where is he? I want him." Her handmaid lowered her eyes. "The boy . . . he did not live, Khaleesi." Her voice was a frightened whisper.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Mirri Maz Duur made sure of it. Good for her.

[Takesis]

Hello, sorry for pulling this thread up. But I think I have to bring up a few points.

I'm in the side that Rhaego is still alive.

Some more points to consider.

-Not all of the dosh khaleen are Dothraki. They are khaleesi, that sometimes came from outside the dothraki nation, like Dany. Is it really impossible to have a Lhazareen in there, or most? That still believes in their tenets of their old religion? That still has ties to their people? That has ties to Mirri Maz Durr?

-The Dothaki's favorite people to enslave are Lhazareene after all. Why not marry some of them? The Lhazareen and Dothraki only differ in culture, but otherwise, they look like each other. Here's what Daenerys say of them:

Once Dany might have taken them for Dothraki, for the have the same copper skin and almond shaped eyes.

-The Dothraki doesn't seem to be fond of most magic, but the crones having power to predict the future from evokes the feel of the faith of R'hllor. Mirri also seems to have similar power as well. Smokes and shadows, fire and blood magic. Magic of the Lhazar.

-Recall where did Khal Oggo, (who was found by Drogo) found the Lhazareen camp. It was within a territory claimed by the Dothraki on the other side of the river. What made them so bold to do so?

-Dany has vowed to end slavery everywhere. How can she do so if the greatest slaver is also the mightest calvalry in the world? Only a mighty change in the culture of the Dothraki can make them do that.

A little far fetched, but here's my take.

The dosh khaleen are plotting a coup. The crones (who I think are mostly Lhazareen) declared the coming of the Stallion who mounts the world. Well duh, blood of the rightful rulers of Westeros, and blood of the khal with the largest khalassar in recent history. West and East, united under one ruler. But they plan not to raise him in the Dothraki way. which will just bring another age of blood and savagery, but as their own. Hereby, hatching the plot to take him once he is born.

It seems a little convenient to have Drogo find that sacked town right after he declared to march west. And on the convenient side of the river too. I think the Lhazar planned to be sacrificed that way. Well not everyone knew, but Mirri perhaps.

Which will give her convenient access to poison Drogo, and help give birth to Rhaego, whom they (the women that is, women that looks like Dothraki but could be Lhazareen) then whisk away back to Vaes Dothrak and hide him from all the males.

Their expected outcome will be, Dany going there of course and then will be part of their next move. Which she throws to the wind when she successfully hatched dragons. But with it, comes the chance that their plot might succeed after all.

Whatever the outcome of Dany and Jaqho's meeting, Dany will go to Vaes Dothrak.

And here's what I think the dosh khaleen are plotting to do. Finding her son alive, Dany will go along. They will call all the khalassars together as prophesied a long time ago. Then have a ceremony of sorts, with a reveal of Daenerys emerging from the womb of the world bearing her son. A bronze skinned kid with silver hair. They will then concoct some story of her forcing death in the nightlands to kneel (Benerro's preachings) and giving her her son back.

And the Dothraki, respecting only strength, who thought that her son is dead, would all tremble before someone who has the strength to beat death. I think Dany might even take it a step further and ask them the bloodrider oath in behalf of her son. What makes a khal after all? Bloodriders and a khalassar. And Rhaego is supposed to be Khal of Khals. How else to do that, but to make a bloodrider of every khal present? Or take it a step further, and make every single dothraki a bloodrider to her son (Drogon involved somehow, with something epic). Who would dare harm a boy with a million bloodriders?

Where does that leave us then?

That would leave us with a people who's lives are dedicated to looting and sacking in total obedience to the whim of the son of the breaker of shackles. A fundamental change will occur in the dothraki society with that then. Their entire nation under one ruler. One opposed to slavery and sacking, as intended by the dosh khaleen. One ruler, who has ties to the woman with a superweapon in her control. I could see Essos falling under dothraki rule. A new empire will arise.

What can another claimant to the Iron Throne do to the plot then?

The second Dance of Dragons.

With Dany's dilemma over slavery in Essos at an end (no more slaving dothraki, just one giant calvalry who will conquer the east in her son's name). She can now concentrate on Westeros.

If Rhaego is dead, there will be no reason for her to fight Aegon, real or fake, since she's convinced she's barren and will not bear anymore. What good is vengeance on a Blackfyre pretender or a relative with a better claim than you, if you have no legacy to fight for?

With Rhaego alive though, she will come from the east to conquer Westeros in the name of her son. If she wins, with the Dothraki finishing up the trail of cities she leaves burning in her wake in Essos, the known world is Rhaego's.

Stallion who mounts the World.

[MasterJack]

snip

The Dosh Khaleen predicted the birth of the khal of the khal, the greatest Dothraki. I agree with you they couldnt let Rhaego/Dany without some sort or "monitoring" and the instant Drogo was a goner (vegetable/dead) it is perfectly beleivable (while the opposite really isnt) they judged a new and "outsider" klhalessi unfit to raise him by herself.

I have to desagree with the possible ties with MMD, i think it makes more sense if the baby was simply taken by the Dosh Khaleen spies and they just turned toward MMD and ordered her something along the line: The baby is to be unborn. MMD just when along with it since she hold a grudge against Dany(or on the contrary liked her kindess and wanted to protect her (but this theory is for another time)). Being a schoolar about medical sciences/magic (she studied under Marwyn) she knew some of the vague rumors about the lizard-like unborn baby from some targ.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hello, sorry for pulling this thread up. But I think I have to bring up a few points.

I'm in the side that Rhaego is still alive.

Some more points to consider.

-Not all of the dosh khaleen are Dothraki. They are khaleesi, that sometimes came from outside the dothraki nation, like Dany.

Evidence?

[Takesis]

^

Err, Dany being taken as khaleesi by Drogo?

The fact that his khalassar did not even bat an eye at that means that this is not a forbidden custom among the dothraki, rare maybe but definitely acceptable. The only thing that can deny their marriage are the dosh khaleen.

[Lady Woodland]

Hi there,

Firstly to MasterJack - really well thought out & written, I just read your post & it's a great theory to find & read, especially when you are mostly lurking like me, & trying to figure out what's been hashed out & what people have dismissed as crackpot.

I'm doing a re-read & I've been looking for passages in the book that are almost directly quoted in the TV show because IMHO they are significant.

The birth of Dany's son Rhaego is one of them, so I really enjoyed some of posters supporting comments too because I was trying to figure out why they would lie to Dany, so it gave me further insight & was great reading - kudos to all posters lots more to think about. & then this....

"The maegi," someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not, that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames. "

(Interesting choice of shapes?)

I think this may explain why Dany doesn't even ask about Rhaego at first. In those last minutes as she saw the shapes, she fears the tent but cannot speak to tell them not to take her there, she interprets the visions as death & is not surprised when MMD confirms that she knew what she had bought with the blood magic).

That doesn't necessarily make it true though, her guilt over what she had just done brought her to that conclusion so she doesn't question it.

Jorah's definitely hiding something, we saw no dead baby or burial & it is GRRM after all. So for what it's worth it's my belief also that Rhaego lives. In the book & the show we know Ser Jorah is carrying her into the tent & that it appears that he & MMD are the only ones present for the baby's birth because the Dothraki are too afraid. (much easier to tell a lie when fewer people know the truth)

[mezmerised]

I have nothing new to add but just wanted to say that I love this theory. To me this has R+L=J levels of greatness. The clues were all there all along but I couldn't really see it but once I did it all fell into place somehow. And yes, it contain the 'dead baby isn't really dead'-trope which I usually hate but it makes so much sense otherwise so I don't really care.

I never really understood why Dany saw a grown Rhaego, which seemed more like wish-fulfillment when usually her visions are about giving her some cryptic hints.

I never really understood why she had to go back to Vaes Dothrak (or even meet Jhaqo again) it seemed a bit repetitive to me.

But mainly I never understood why so many people want her to go to Westeros already when it seems so clear that her place is in Essos and that "her people" are the Dothraki and the slaves/freedmen. And Dany doesn't know anything about Westeros, she has never even set foot on Westerosi mainland and most of what Viserys has told her is plain wrong or had an extremely Targ-positive spin.

Sure, she has to go to Westeros eventually to meet Jon and fight the Others but her home is Essos and her destiny is ending slavery. And as the mother of TSWMTW she is in a great position to stop slavery in the long run by making the Dothraki stop providing slaves altogether.

Plus the Dothraki Sea would be a much better place for the dragons. The Citadel hates and fears dragons/magic and would do their best to kill them again and Dany is afraid to let them fly in highly populated areas anyway, but in the DS they could roam freely.

And as the cherry on top of all this awesomeness there is a hint about my favourite crack ship Jany in here :love:

When we finally get the last two books and it turns out that Dany becomes the anatgonist, that the Citadel kills the dragons and that we find Jaime dangling from some tree courtesy of Lady Stoneheart I will consider this the true alternative ending for the story ;)

[MasterJack]

snip

I am glad you liked it. The way Rhaego "died" is so fishy I couldnt helpbut think something is wrong.

About your quote;

"Inside the tent the shapes were dancing¹, circling the brazier and the bloody bath², dark

against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames."³

1- Who esle saw Shadows dancing? Patchface in Clash's first chapter, he says it multiple times in this chapter, the same chapter that introduce Melissandre and also a chapter that could be happening at the same time that Dany’s last. Anyway Shadowbinding magic is known to be used by MMD and Mel so no surprise here.

“The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord, ”

he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. “The shadows come to stay, my lord,

stay my lord, stay my lord. ”

Scary, so these shadows arent 1-use-only shadow as the ones mel uses.

2- Shadows circling around Fire and Blood, oh.

3- Great Wolf… could be Ned since he could be dying at the same moment these event hapenned. And the man covered by fire could be R’hllor himself or Stannis being taken under the grasp of Mel around the same moment too. I wonder too if those shadow were dead souls, so any dead Stark would do for the Great wolf shadow, hey it could even be Lady's soul :D

There could be more shadows Dany didnt see and she seems to be only one who saw them too. But I cant get the meaning of this vision. Someone smarter than me could probably answer that.

And as the cherry on top of all this awesomeness there is a hint about my favourite crack ship Jany in here :love:

This is deep crackpot territory here, but we know this:

1-A "brother" will kill Cercei(Jaime?)

2-A more beautiful Queen will take all she hold dear from Cercei (Jaime's love/protection?)

3-Rheagar promised Jaime he will change things when he comes back, He cant but Dany can replace him in some ways.

4-My post-war dany theory and the white lion following her to essos.

Jany is possible but still a very long shot.

[Wmarshal]

I think he could, his body never being shown to Dany and no one actually reporting how his body look other then her shows there is room for the possibility. I don't think Dany is a stallion or Drogon. A stallion is a male horse and a dothraki warrior.

[Lady Woodland]

I am glad you liked it. The way Rhaego "died" is so fishy I couldnt helpbut think something is wrong.

About your quote;

"Inside the tent the shapes were dancing¹, circling the brazier and the bloody bath², dark

against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames."³

1- Who esle saw Shadows dancing? Patchface in Clash's first chapter, he says it multiple times in this chapter, the same chapter that introduce Melissandre and also a chapter that could be happening at the same time that Dany’s last. Anyway Shadowbinding magic is known to be used by MMD and Mel so no surprise here.

“The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord, ”

he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. “The shadows come to stay, my lord,

stay my lord, stay my lord. ”

Scary, so these shadows arent 1-use-only shadow as the ones mel uses.

Thanks MasterJack,

I haven't started my re- read of aCoK yet, - (actually only found the books through the buzz about the show) saw series 1& 2 then devoured all the books in the last 2 months so I'm still raw. These are not books you read though - I usually buy & give away books to a friend or local library, these are more like my bible/s. Sorry hope to not offend anyone.

I have some work to do on Patchface, I haven't given his prophecy much consideration yet, but there's plenty of time, I think I'm fortunate to become a fan so late - I really feel for the people who have been waiting 18 years....

My copy of aGoT has so many coloured bookmarks it's not working - I think I need a journal to write things from the chapters.. - If you have any wisdom to share I would be grateful.

I have nothing new to add but just wanted to say that I love this theory. To me this has R+L=J levels of greatness. The clues were all there all along but I couldn't really see it but once I did it all fell into place somehow. And yes, it contain the 'dead baby isn't really dead'-trope which I usually hate but it makes so much sense otherwise so I don't really care.

I never really understood why Dany saw a grown Rhaego, which seemed more like wish-fulfillment when usually her visions are about giving her some cryptic hints.

I never really understood why she had to go back to Vaes Dothrak (or even meet Jhaqo again) it seemed a bit repetitive to me.

But mainly I never understood why so many people want her to go to Westeros already when it seems so clear that her place is in Essos and that "her people" are the Dothraki and the slaves/freedmen. And Dany doesn't know anything about Westeros, she has never even set foot on Westerosi mainland and most of what Viserys has told her is plain wrong or had an extremely Targ-positive spin.

Sure, she has to go to Westeros eventually to meet Jon and fight the Others but her home is Essos and her destiny is ending slavery. And as the mother of TSWMTW she is in a great position to stop slavery in the long run by making the Dothraki stop providing slaves altogether.

Plus the Dothraki Sea would be a much better place for the dragons. The Citadel hates and fears dragons/magic and would do their best to kill them again and Dany is afraid to let them fly in highly populated areas anyway, but in the DS they could roam freely.

And as the cherry on top of all this awesomeness there is a hint about my favourite crack ship Jany in here :love:

Thanks also for your contribution Freerider,

I totally agree with you on the Essos thing. I feel Dany learned a powerful lesson with the loss of her Khal/Rhaego, hence her passion to free the slaves, but she's flying by the seat of her pants (excuse the pun) & she needs as many powerful & wise friends as she can gather around her so it will be intriguing to see who they turn out to be.

I agree she has a lot to do in Essos before crossing the Narrow see so maybe you are right she will stay in Essos & build her kingdom there, leaving JS (or other worthy characters) to rescue Westeros, I maybe a total heretic on this site but I'm not sure being a Targ makes her the rightful ruler of Westeros. JS is doing a pretty good job of planning & he see's the real threat in the WW, like Dany he needs to find his true allies.