The Old Gods - The Gods of Ice and Fire (Long Theory)

[tommystinker]

Great read aryakiddin.

I really like the theory and also the BR +SS=MEL theory of yolkboys.

I think there is something special/ magical about a child born from targ blood(fire) and Stark blood (ice) that creates a balance between the two major forces of magic.

Every religion has extremist and could the others be this for ice and rhollor be the same for fire??

[Mithras]

The suggestion is a good one Lamprey, but aren't bones already part of the earth. So a greenseer can access them anyway.

I think weirwood roots must be connected to the lichyard and I also think lichyards should be some magical places like the cave of the CotF. Otherwise, any bone in anywhere can be viewed. That makes too many scraps in the archive.

[MoIaF]

Dragonglass represents blalnce, so when it touched an ice "Other" it melted it, so if it touches a dragon, I believe it will turn it into stone perhaps.

Yes, Hardhome having a dragonglass cache near a volcano makes perfect sense.

This seems like a plausible way of destroying both the Others and the dragons. Yet, they use and export dragonglass in Assahai the home of the dragons. You would think if it was harmful to the dragons they would ban it there. I donno - it was just a thought.

Completely unrelated to the above but I was thinking of the Others and the dragons being opposites. The Others are sentient beings but the dragons are not which makes that an imbalance opposite. I wonder if there is more to the dragons...

[Iona]

Then what about the glass candles? Is there some other "magic" to dragonglass itself, or is it something innate to the candles and not the material (which sounds wrong)?

[yolkboy]

This seems like a plausible way of destroying both the Others and the dragons. Yet, they use and export dragonglass in Assahai the home of the dragons. You would think if it was harmful to the dragons they would ban it there. I donno - it was just a thought.

Dany hears dragons come from Asshai originally - I dont think that equates to it being the home of dragons now. If that was literal dragons in Bran's coma dream it could be the 3EC showing Bran the past. The presence of Robert Strong indicates there was time travelling going on anyway. After the part that we learn Dany heard about dragons coming from near Asshai, she then hears the dragons are all dead. A Got finishes with this line...

and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.

So I take that to mean there were no dragons left before Dany's. Quaithe seems to travel from Asshai to see the dragons, and then comments they've caused a surge in magic. Adding everything together, I think dragons were extinct in Asshai. As such, I think mining dragonglass would be acceptable there.

It's interesting they have access to dragonglass though. There must be a volcano or two there, supporting the idea that dragons came from close by, originally.

[MoIaF]

^^^thanks for the clarification.

There is something still bothering me though. Am I correct in believing that dragonglass is actually fossilized volcanic rock?

If so, then dragon would have "lived" around it living in volcanos. They come from the same place unlike the Others who have no common denominator with dragonglass.

[yolkboy]

^^^thanks for the clarification.

There is something still bothering me though. Am I correct in believing that dragonglass is actually fossilized volcanic rock?

If so, then dragon would have "lived" around it living in volcanos. They come from the same place unlike the Others who have common denominator with dragonglass.

Yes, obsidian is a real world material, it's basically glass formed from lava in a certain scenario.

The point you make is a good one, dragons live around this stuff, and so the idea that it's lethal to them might be problematic.

However, I wonder if this line from Quaithe means anything...(about the firemage in Qarth)

“Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass

Quaithe can't be talking about glass candles here, because half a year prior nobody could light them. So I wonder if the insinuation is that the fire property can be extracted from dragonglass, by magic. That would leave an icy material, which I'm guessing wouldn't be friendly to dragons.

I might be wrong in my interpretation here, but this line always stood out to me.

[Arya kiddin']

Then what about the glass candles? Is there some other "magic" to dragonglass itself, or is it something innate to the candles and not the material (which sounds wrong)?

snip

snip

snip

In my opinion, obsidian is fire trapped within ice. The fact that the fire has been "woken" form ice is an indication that magic has been let free in the world again, the song is now beating. Burning always consumes the matter, but with glass candles, nothing is burnt. it is like ice feeding the fire, quite like death feeding life. It is a cycle. That would be my interpretation. :)

[MoIaF]

Quaithe can't be talking about glass candles here, because half a year prior nobody could light them. So I wonder if the insinuation is that the fire property can be extracted from dragonglass, by magic. That would leave an icy material, which I'm guessing wouldn't be friendly to dragons.

I might be wrong in my interpretation here, but this line always stood out to me.

^{Well, if dragonglass is the equivalent of obsidian in our world then there really wouldn't be any icy material at all, per se. However, I'm open to the possibility that in Planetos it is fire trapped in ice as Arya Kiddin' mentioned above. And would work then to destroy both.}

^{Something is still bothering me about this (which might be my problem) :). But, I thought and to some degree still think that the Others and the dragons are opposites of each other, and in a way they are, however, in a way they aren't and if they aren't truly opposites of each other then they can't be destroyed with the same material. I donno, the more I think of it there is an imbalance between the two. They don’t represent the same threat to the human race.}

^{As I mentioned above the Others are sentient beings but the dragons are not. I always thought that the birth of the dragons was in response to the reemergence of the Others. With the return of the Others, magic had return to the Planetos and thus the dragons could be brought back to life. Also, I think that the destruction of the Others is imperative for the survival of the human race, however, the dragons although threatening are not nearly the kind of threat that the Others are...}

^{I’m sorry for derailing the thread; I’ll go back to my corner}

[yolkboy]

^{Well, if dragonglass is the equivalent of obsidian in our world then there really wouldn't be any icy material at all, per se.}

Yeah I meant it was based off a real world material, but obviously different in as much as it has magical properties. Here's what grrm said about dragonglass... relevant to what you're saying...

Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?

Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

Shaw: Are dragons somehow the mortal enemy of the Others?

Martin: There are a lot of legends, and you'll be hearing more about them in the future books, but a lot of stuff about Others and about dragons maybe isn't completely understood by the people of the present. Obsidian is of course volcanic glass; it's formed by immense heat and pressure down in the earth. The dragons themselves are creatures of intense heat.

Shaw: I wasn't sure if you had added something to obsidian for the fantasy.

Martin: I've given it magical characteristics that of course real obsidian doesn't necessarily have. After all, we live in a world that has no magic. My world does have magic, so it's a little bit different.

[therustman]

In what way does Jon look like a weirwood?

You mention that all the ice/fire links (BR etc) have physical resemblance to weirwoods.

I enjoyed reading it but do think that its more to do with magic than religion and religion is how the poor non magical humans deal with processing magic.

Also we have no info that prior to first men that the CotF 'worshipped' these trees - the fact that trees had 'riders' could have been common knowledge which wasn't shared with man.

[yolkboy]

Also we have no info that prior to first men that the CotF 'worshipped' these trees - the fact that trees had 'riders' could have been common knowledge which wasn't shared with man.

The children taught the worship of Old Gods to the First Men. There's also numerous clues to the trees being sacred to them, such as defending High Hearts 31 weirwood trees against Eregg, and the implications of the pact.

[MoIaF]

Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?

Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

Shaw: Are dragons somehow the mortal enemy of the Others?

Martin: There are a lot of legends, and you'll be hearing more about them in the future books, but a lot of stuff about Others and about dragons maybe isn't completely understood by the people of the present. Obsidian is of course volcanic glass; it's formed by immense heat and pressure down in the earth. The dragons themselves are creatures of intense heat.

Shaw: I wasn't sure if you had added something to obsidian for the fantasy.

Martin: I've given it magical characteristics that of course real obsidian doesn't necessarily have. After all, we live in a world that has no magic. My world does have magic, so it's a little bit different

Hmm, I see this and it makes me think that indeed dragons and dragonglass come from the same place and that one of the mgical properties of dragonglass is the ability to destroy the Others, the ability to fight ice.

On the other hand, I can see dragonglass as part of the sor of "green" magic because it comes from the earth and therefore neutral in between ice and fire.

[Arya kiddin']

^snip

On the other hand, I can see dragonglass as part of the sor of "green" magic because it comes from the earth and therefore neutral in between ice and fire.

Maester, let me give you my take on this. Dragonglass is the balance between ice and fire. Others are ice made flesh, dragons are fire made flesh. What this will do these creatures is to restore them to balance. It will melt others (water??) and turn dragons to stone (earth?? is approximately what condensed ash should be. )

In what way does Jon look like a weirwood?

You mention that all the ice/fire links (BR etc) have physical resemblance to weirwoods.

I mentioned it in the thread, that Jon's connection is shown to us via Ghost, his characteristics are emulated by his direwolf. Ghost is the only white direwolf among all his siblings (albino like Bloodraven) and has eyes red like a weirwood.

[Lyse Stark]

Maester, let me give you my take on this. Dragonglass is the balance between ice and fire. Others are ice made flesh, dragons are fire made flesh. What this will do these creatures is to restore them to balance. It will melt others (water??) and turn dragons to stone (earth?? is approximately what condensed ash should be. )

I mentioned it in the thread, that Jon's connection is shown to us via Ghost, his characteristics are emulated by his direwolf. Ghost is the only white direwolf among all his siblings (albino like Bloodraven) and has eyes red like a weirwood.

Exactly! Ghost is like a weirwood, and the white fur is ice, while the red eyes are fire.

[RaidenSchumacher]

I think this is too complicated. There is either one or two gods. The Lord Of Light is a GOD. He *may* have opposition in a dualistic form. This would be who the others worship.

When a man of blood slits his hand, he makes a sword of fire.

When a white walker <does something sacrificial> to a living being he turns it into a white walker if it is a human. If it is another animal like a dragon, well who knows if an ice dragon is possible.

One of the themes (besides Fire and Ice) is sacrifice. Great sacrifices will have to be made to win the war against the cold things.

Different people are not Fire and ice. Everyone who has a name in the books is Fire, we don't know any ice people who have a name. We don't even know that they have names at all.

[Arya kiddin']

I think this is too complicated. There is either one or two gods. The Lord Of Light is a GOD. He *may* have opposition in a dualistic form. This would be who the others worship.

When a man of blood slits his hand, he makes a sword of fire.

When a white walker <does something sacrificial> to a living being he turns it into a white walker if it is a human. If it is another animal like a dragon, well who knows if an ice dragon is possible.

One of the themes (besides Fire and Ice) is sacrifice. Great sacrifices will have to be made to win the war against the cold things.

Different people are not Fire and ice. Everyone who has a name in the books is Fire, we don't know any ice people who have a name. We don't even know that they have names at all.

Hello Raiden. "There is either one or two Gods" is not a statement to be made lightly, we don't have any sort of proof on it. I haven't written much about Rh'llor, because I believe despite them mentioning a duality of Gods as their deities, it is the same kind of magic of ice and fire they're tapping into. Religion is not a pre-requisite for Gods to exist, so we can conclude anything by what Rh'llorians simply "believe".

All the named people are fire and the cold ones are ice - I don't think it is that simple. You're asserting life is simply fire, there's no "ice" connotation in life. I believe life itself is a union of the two. The Others are rather magical beings, like dragons, so we better compare them there. Not saying they don't have anything human about them, but it's the dragons that are their counterpart.

As for ice dragon - I can't give you the link straightaway, but people have made strong cases before that the term refers to Jon Snow.

Because of his both Stark and Targaryen parentage. That theory is discussed in R+L = J thread, which is a pinned thread.

[OberynBA]

Ice preserves and fire consumes, but too much of either one is no good in the long run. The Children call themselves "those who sing the song of the earth", so could it be that the song of the earth is the same as the song of ice and fire, the alternating of the seasons, the forces that need to be in balance for life and GRRth to survive. There could be outside forces that try to upset this balance (like the Others in case of the ice part, maybe dragons for the fire).

I thought this was the intent behind the Ice and Fire. Others vs Dragons. Too much is too good.

[Tony Stark of Winterfell]

i doubt that the lord of light or the great other even exist. fire and ice are just 2 opposing forces as mentioned in this thread, and red priests know how to tap into the fire magic to see prophecies. there are theories going around that the others descended from humans who experimented with ice magic, perhaps lured to the idea by the cotf who wanted to seek a balance between ice and fire.

[mrlukeduke]

It's funny, I missed a lot of things in the books that I learned later on the forums, and while this is a fantastic analysis, I had the idea that Weirwoods were using blood as "fuel" right from the beginning of the first book, where Ned is cleaning is sword underneath the Winterfell heart tree. I thought it was common knowledge actually. Right from the beginning their colours and haunting descriptions, not to mention links to the past and the children of the forest, were too striking to ignore. Great read anyway!