The Old Gods - The Gods of Ice and Fire (Long Theory)

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I've thought along these lines for awhile now, definitely like the thread.

[Iona]

I'm truly enjoying this theory as a whole - the religions in ASOIAF and how they manifest in the lives of "ordinary" people tickle my brains. I'd say that I'm most convinced about the Old Gods and R'hollor, since their followers seem to have been given some actual gifts from the godly talent pool, whereas the Seven really don't seem to bother to "show off", so to speak.

As I was reading, the beginning really made me think about the connections that we most often make with the Old Gods+North+Ice. The Old Gods have their foothold in the North, which is a pretty icy place. The Old Gods tie in with first the CotF and later on the First Men as well.

This theory is about the weirwoods, the Old Gods of the North. The general perception about the weirwoods is that they are considered to be sacred by the Northerners (descendants of First Men to be precise) and are thus related to the element of Ice.

But the ice part, that's what really made me scratch my head. Originally, the CotF and later on the First Men inhabited not only the North, but other parts of Westeros as well, so the link with North and cold --> ice, to me, isn't as clear cut as I've always thought it was, but more of a modern concept in Westeros of "today". So in this sense, your theory about both ice and fire combined in the Old Gods is more convincing to me, since they were not just the gods of cold places to begin with... :)

The changing of seasons has always fascinated me, and I think GRRM has stated that we might be hearing more about them later on. To me, the seasons have the elements of ice and fire as well, and I'd love to come up with some explanation that ties them into this theory as well. For me, I always felt there was somekind of a struggle between the ice and fire elements that manifests in summers and winters of varying lengths, but if the weirwoods (and Old Gods) are the combination of ice and fire as you so finely demonstrated here, then thinking them as somehow separate and opposite forces could be invalid.

Ice preserves and fire consumes, but too much of either one is no good in the long run. The Children call themselves "those who sing the song of the earth", so could it be that the song of the earth is the same as the song of ice and fire, the alternating of the seasons, the forces that need to be in balance for life and GRRth to survive. There could be outside forces that try to upset this balance (like the Others in case of the ice part, maybe dragons for the fire).

The Old Gods/weirwoods/CotF could be the "keepers" of both ice and fire, the jugglers who balance the elements to keep the balls in the air so that life can go on. Ice and fire could also represent life and death as well as any other opposite elements, so there's a sort of ying/yang -pattern to the Old Gods.

[James Arryn]

Half-way through. Nicely done.

[MoIaF]

Excellent post and a great read. Thank You!

Im in complete agreement with you regarding the duality of ice but also as mentioned down thread the duality fire. As mention the use of blood magic is also something that is an important element with both Old Gods and R'hllorism. Only death pays for life is something that we see in both of these.

To me, The Song of Ice and Fire is a story of duality not only between ice and fire but also duality within ice and duality within fire. Ice preserves, which can be both a good thing and a bad thing. It make me think of Maester Aemons words to Jon I(which you brought up) fire consumes and ice preserves. At first I though one was a good and the other was bad. However, the more I think of it I realize that neither is good nor bad. For example preserving the institution of the NW that way it currently is, is not a good thing. Destroying the institution of slavery is not a bad thing. But I digress...

Okay, back to duality. On the other hand we have Fire which can both destroys and creates. Other duality within the series are the North and South(and the stark difference between them), the Other and the Dragon, the Sun and Moon - as represented by Male and Female. Etc.

We were discussing this at another thread but when Dany is in the HOTU they asked her to drink from the cup of ice and the cup of fire. I wonder if this is a call to find a balance within herself.

Having a middle ground between ice and fire is important, however so are the extremes. If you don't have ice or fire then you don't have a middle. To me, it all has to go together in unison. If any of these elements is missing then the equation is out of balance.

As you mentioned up thread there are many more elements that must be considered when trying to decipher what the song of ice and fire is really about. But its fun trying to figure them out. :)

[RedFishBlackFish]

Great Post.

I think the interplay between Ice and Fire is important, vis a vis placing one aspect as dominant to the other. I don't see any need to separate the Light and Darkness interplay of Rh'llorism.

I suggest that Fire and Ice/Light and Darkness occupy a dialectical relationship of the form:

Thesis--Antithesis-->Synthesis.

in ASoIF terms:

Ice--Fire-->Synthesis

The placement of Ice or Fire as either thesis or antithesis is unimportant. The insight is that they create something new. I don't have the exact quote, but the reader is told that Ice preserves, while fire consumes. A world with only preservation would soon run out of room for life, so there must be a destructive element. In a broad sense, I think the synthesis for Ice and Fire/Light and Darkness is life itself. There's evidence for this in the words of Mirri Maz Durr, "Only death may pay for life" because death is a requirement for the creation of life--without death there would be no room for life. Perhaps the magic of the old gods and Rh'llor is also a synthesis between Ice and Fire/Light and Darkness.

[bemused]

This is a good read and some very interesting points were made. But I can't resist saying, yet again, there is no proof anywhere that the CoTF ever practiced blood sacrifice. All the references to it involve men , including in Bran's vision.

[Ser Knute]

I like this theory myself.

One thing to add: If Ice represents the preservation of what has happened, perhaps Fire is the conduit for what can/will happen?

We've seen many an instance throughout the series of Targaryens having these 'Dragon Dreams'. Again, just like with Mel, they don't always unfold as they are interpreted but the visions are there.

That just popped into my head while reading your theory. Perhaps the Song of Ice and Fire is about the two working in a sort of harmony to ensure neither fizzles out, or, perhaps it refers to a single man (Jon) being the one who finally brings about harmony between the two, since it appears that through the history of what we've been provided thusfar, they've kind of been in opposition, or at the least not in harmony.

I don't have as much literary 'training' or knowledge as some of you do so for me some of your theories are just like, Wow, that'd be a cool way to tell the story, or something to that effect. It's a completely different way of telling it than like, with Lord of the Rings where there was a company of good guys versus a company of bad guys, let's see who wins!? In this story, it's not at all cut and dried, it's a lot grey, in the middle, balance, or in the end, perhaps, Harmony.

[yolkboy]

This is a good read and some very interesting points were made. But I can't resist saying, yet again, there is no proof anywhere that the CoTF ever practiced blood sacrifice. All the references to it involve men , including in Bran's vision.

I've been thinking about this. OK for now we can't confirm CotF sacrificed either way, but we can consider how it might have been done.

The main problem here IMO is that the blood sacrifice we see is always using bronze. This is true of Bran's vision and MMD's bloodmagic. The CotF didn't have bronze and so couldn't sacrifice similarly. Their lack of bronze for weapons is perhaps one of the reasons they lost against the First Men, who had bronze and used it against them.

However, I realised CotF didn't need bronze to carry out bloodmagic and sacrifices. They had something else.

“Obsidian. Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The children of the forest hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal . . . In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian.”

(they also gave daggers to the NW)

Regarding sacrifice, obsidian blades were famously used for sacrifice in our world. The Aztecs would engage in similar blood sacrifices to give to the gods, using black blades.

read here

The Aztecs would give a series of rituals to unlucky nearby tribesman to be sacrificed with an obsidian knife, and donate their blood to Acolnahuacatl, an Aztec god

So there might be an influence or parallel here. I just find it strange Grrm chose to told us the CotF both had blades of obsidian, and let us know they had it in abundance. The only real world culture i know of to have obsidian blades, used them for blood sacrifice.

Regarding obsidian, fitting in with Arya Kiddin's assertion the Old Gods are linked to both ice and fire, this would be a fitting material to use. Dragonglass has both properties. It's cold to the touch and 'contains' fire - it's nicknamed 'frozen fire', so seems very appropriate, thematically, as a sacrificial medium. The fact the CotF hunted, tells me that they were not the nature-loving friendly race of elves that they're sometimes portrayed as. I personally don't believe a race that hunts with blades wouldn't kill each other, so I hold the notion of them blood sacrificing as plausible.

Presumably the First Men realized there was power in sacrificing infront of the bleeding eyes of a weirwood. Who taught them that trick? The same race that must have taught greenseers how to look through weirwoods, I would have thought.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

<snip>

Thanks for bringing up the dragonglass, came to my mind earlier today when I read this thread that it is one of the things that is both fire and ice.

And the only thing that can kill an other.

This might mean, as I like to think, the solution is both fire and ice working together in order to defeat you-know-what.

I think that could be one of the meanings of the song of ice and fire.

[yolkboy]

Thanks for bringing up the dragonglass, came to my mind earlier today when I read this thread that it is one of the things that is both fire and ice.

And the only thing that can kill an other.

Yes, and I wonder how dragonglass would fare vs dragons... given it has ice properties.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yes, and I wonder how dragonglass would fare vs dragons... given it has ice properties.

Its possible it could kill dragons turning them to fire just like it turned the others into ice.

Im guessing it comes from volcanoes just like the one in our world since there is alot on Dragonstone?

[yolkboy]

Its possible it could kill dragons turning them to fire just like it turned the others into ice.

Im guessing it comes from volcanoes just like the one in our world since there is alot on Dragonstone?

Yes, it's being mined at Dragonstone at the moment, a huge cache should turn up at some point. Grrm said its a real world equivalent, apart from this obsidian having magical properties.

This points towards a volcano at Hardhome, as where else did CotF get their obsidian from?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yes, it's being mined at Dragonstone at the moment, a huge cache should turn up at some point. Grrm said its a real world equivalent, apart from this obsidian having magical properties.

This points towards a volcano at Hardhome, as where else did CotF get their obsidian from?

Most likely there was probably a volcano there, thats probably why winterfell is warm, it was built over a volcano.

[Arya kiddin']

I think ice and fire works like the ying -yang.

This is one of the best analogies to the ice and fire concept, good work Queen Alysanne. Light-dark, good-evil etc have inherent positive or negative connotations associated to them. Yin-Yang actually pretty much explains ice and fire duality - interdependent, interconnected elements, that can't exist without the other. They do not oppose each other, they complement each other. And I do believe weirwoods are one of the manifestations of this interplay.

I've thought along these lines for awhile now, definitely like the thread.

Half-way through. Nicely done.

Thanks, ToJ, James! :)

[Arya kiddin']

snip

Thanks Iona :). I see most of your ideas resonate with mine, the last part really intrigues me, as I myself have argued before that dragons are the exact opposite of the Others. Others are ice made flesh, dragons are fire made flesh. The notion that these as "outsiders" tend to disturb the balance is very interesting, and gets along with the often made conjecture that for the world to be stable again, both will have to be eradicated from GRRTH Planetos ( :P )

Another intersesting notion is that CotF could be the keepers of the said balance. I proposed that the source of all magic is rooted in the interplay of ice and fire, and this will explain why they had such strong magic to begin with, like severing the arm of Dorne using the hammer of the waters.

snip

Great post RedBlack :). I don't have much to add at this moment, so let me think more along these lines.

snip

Good points Ser Knute. This notion about fire being the conduit of the future is truly a great one, I will post something along these lines in the next post. Glad you liked the theory. :)

[KingofSothoryos]

How does it affect your theory if Mel is using a glamour and how people describe her is not really how she looks?

[yolkboy]

How does it affect your theory if Mel is using a glamour and how people describe her is not really how she looks?

There's 3 considerations...

1. She's not wearing a glamour and instead uses other 'dark arts' to keep her youthful appearance (like shiera and serenei)- remembering she's likely very old.

2. She's glamouring a younger version of herself. Glamours seem to require someone to model on.

3.When Jon fights Rattleshirt, he notices something isn't right about his body, the glamour had taken some of Mance's shape - maybe some of the real her is coming through.

The other two glamors we see, with Bloodraven and Mance, have flaws. They are poorly defined or change, and this is never said of Mel.

Almost everything about Mel can be attributed to Bloodraven and Shiera - Skin, eyes, height, figure, face, breasts, beauty, elegance, even apparel. Their descriptions are pretty much like for like. The only thing that doesnt fit is her unusual red hue hair, and we have this strange ssm from grrm...

"Westeros has better technology with dyes, than Medieval Europe did. Thats why they are able to great consistent colors such as scarlet, crimson, or burgandy rather than just red."

Alongside all the other evidence that Mel is their daughter, it seems beyond coincidence that Mel's likeness could have been pulled from thin air.

[Mithras]

If the greenseer archive consists of only weirwood.avi files, it lacks many things. because the trees cannot grow everywhere, can be cut and burnt, and do not wander around.

Bones are also magically strong elements. All the bones in the cave of the CotF should tell us something. If bones remember, then the greenseers maybe able to communicate with them, or summon their spirits, access the past knowledge of them, which makes bone.avi files possible.

If the greenseer archive includes weirwood.avi and bone.avi files together, it becomes quite a godly one. Therefore, returning the bones of a deceased relative I think is a long forgotten tradition, which means sending the bone.avi file of that person to the family archive. Starks lichyard and heart tree were the oldest parts of Winterfell. Bran downloading the memories of dead Starks sounds great.

Most of these thoughts come from Bran Vras and others I cant remember right now.

[Arya kiddin']

snip

Excellent post yolkboy. The sacrifice itself can have two virtues - a way to call upon magic, or an initiation ceremony for ascension into the godhood, so it makes perfect sense to do this with a dragonglass blade.

Yes, and I wonder how dragonglass would fare vs dragons... given it has ice properties.

Its possible it could kill dragons turning them to fire just like it turned the others into ice.

Im guessing it comes from volcanoes just like the one in our world since there is alot on Dragonstone?

Dragonglass represents blalnce, so when it touched an ice "Other" it melted it, so if it touches a dragon, I believe it will turn it into stone perhaps.

Yes, it's being mined at Dragonstone at the moment, a huge cache should turn up at some point. Grrm said its a real world equivalent, apart from this obsidian having magical properties.

This points towards a volcano at Hardhome, as where else did CotF get their obsidian from?

Yes, Hardhome having a dragonglass cache near a volcano makes perfect sense.

[Arya kiddin']

snip

The suggestion is a good one Lamprey, but aren't bones already part of the earth. So a greenseer can access them anyway.