Is Stannis doomed as a kinslayer?

[Dance Layder]

Sorry I didn't realize this was an already debated topic I never saw it posted before. I read the books some time ago and am watching the show, I didn't realize how different the circumstances of Renly's death were in the books

[Minsc]

Sorry I didn't realize this was an already debated topic

It is nothing to really be sorry about a lot of topics repeat themselves and that will likely continue until WOW comes out.

[devilrob6]

Well then she should have died there.\devilrob6, on 06 Nov 2013 - 5:23 PM, said:

While they don't think he killed him directly, I think most believe that Stannis had Renly killed.

I don't remember seeing much text evidence for that. There are many different rumors, some blame Brienne, some Catelyn, some blame Stannis. But i don't recall anyone naming him a kinslayer in the books, besides Brienne.

I always imagined that Mel didn't kill Renly herself, but rather provided Stannis with the medium (is this the right word? "means" sounds too simple :D ) for doing the deed.

Stannis was in his bed having nightmares when Renly was killed. Devan was there to witness that, he wanted to wake Stannis but he couldn't. I always had the impression that Stannis never fully realized what happened until afterwards. Later when he plans the assassination of Penrose he seems to know very well what he's doing, but we don't have a scene like that about Renly

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Does it count that he had a shadow baby kill Renly, I mean, he was the one who ordered it. Aren't kinslayers accursed (Victarion won't kill Euron for this reason) so in the end will he fail just because he broke a sacred law?

Really it could go either way. I don't think there is a rule book. Put a sword through your brother? Kinslayer. That's kinda obvious. But bring an army against him or order his execution? That's a bit more of a grey area. I suppose the Princess and the Queen should help highlight this (ie we'll see if kinslaying is an issue in a war between family).

[devilrob6]

Loras thinks he's a kinslayer too, right? As did Catelyn -- she is the one who thought that the shadow assassin resembled Stannis. And people know that Stannis has a shadowbinder in his employ; Varys reports to the council that he imported one from Asshai. I'm actually surprised that more people haven't drawn this conclusion in the story though; Stannis was the main beneficiary of Renly's death and it's fairly common knowledge among the political elite that he does have access to shadow magic. We as readers know not to jump to this conclusion but the characters shouldn't.

Loras thought that in the series, but in the books he accused Brienne of killing Renly when she arrived in KL with Jaime. I have to re-read to see what Catelyn thought about it, but Brienne was the one who was convinced that the shadow was Stannis. I think this kind of magic is so unusual in Westeros that people dismiss it, just like talk about Dragon, Krakens and Others are often dismissed by characters. Also i think that after the murder and battle of Blackwater, besides Loras and Brienne, few people seem to care about what exactly happened to Renly. The Tyrells move on to a new strategy to have Margaery become Queen, the Stormlord pick sides between Stannis and the Iron Throne and Renly's enemies are just glad that he's gone.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Stannis was in his bed having nightmares when Renly was killed. Devan was there to witness that, he wanted to wake Stannis but he couldn't.

That gave me the impression, that those nightmares were no dreams! That his consciousness was inside the shadow.

[devilrob6]

That gave me the impression, that those nightmares were no dreams! That his consciousness was inside the shadow.

Right, i see. To be sure we'd need to know how the shadow-baby thing exactly works. Maybe Mel will give us more info in the next books.

But the information that we have from the books now can be interpreted in different ways. I give Stannis the benefit of the doubt. In my interpretation he's not a kinslayer (innocent until proven).

[Bearson]

Not doomed, no. But regardless if he wins the throne or not, he will be and remain an obvious common suspected kinslayer. An O.J. Stannis, if you will, with the best alibi royalty can buy.

[Mad Monkey]

Loras thought that in the series, but in the books he accused Brienne of killing Renly when she arrived in KL with Jaime. I have to re-read to see what Catelyn thought about it, but Brienne was the one who was convinced that the shadow was Stannis. I think this kind of magic is so unusual in Westeros that people dismiss it, just like talk about Dragon, Krakens and Others are often dismissed by characters. Also i think that after the murder and battle of Blackwater, besides Loras and Brienne, few people seem to care about what exactly happened to Renly. The Tyrells move on to a new strategy to have Margaery become Queen, the Stormlord pick sides between Stannis and the Iron Throne and Renly's enemies are just glad that he's gone.

As far as Catelyn goes, Catelyn makes a lot of remarks along the lines of, 'Stannis has made common cause with a power greater and darker' and it was she who first accuses Stannis of killing Renly (when Renly's guards run into the room and see Brienne over Renly's body, they attack her and Catelyn yells, "Stop, it was Stannis, not her,". She later claims to have felt Stannis's presence in the tent later on. In fact, Brienne only starts thinking it was Stannis after talking to Catelyn; she didn't have any idea who it was until Catelyn said that she felt Stannis's presence during the killing.

As far as Loras goes, there's a scene where Jaime arrests Brienne for killing Renly and puts her in a cell at Loras's behest after the two of them return to KL. When Loras accuses Brienne, Jaime sends him in to talk to her to hear her side of the story before he can punish her. After Loras talks to Brienne, he emerges and admits that he no longer thinks that Brienne did it. To me, this suggests that Loras now believes Brienne's story. In fact, he must -- no one actually believes that Renly died of natural causes. Loras can only realistically believe that Renly was killed by one of his opponents -- and since he is now a servant of the Lannisters then it is much less painful to believe that Stannis did it.

[Gneisenau]

If Stannis is a kinslayer, then Dany is even more so for allowing Viserys to be killed. I don't believe Stannis is, despite the HBO series' much more villainous portrayal of Stannis and D&D changing things around so Stannis really did know and order it.

Maybe Stannis and Dany are both kinslayers then ?

[devilrob6]

As far as Catelyn goes, Catelyn makes a lot of remarks along the lines of, 'Stannis has made common cause with a power greater and darker' and it was she who first accuses Stannis of killing Renly (when Renly's guards run into the room and see Brienne over Renly's body, they attack her and Catelyn yells, "Stop, it was Stannis, not her,". She later claims to have felt Stannis's presence in the tent later on. In fact, Brienne only starts thinking it was Stannis after talking to Catelyn; she didn't have any idea who it was until Catelyn said that she felt Stannis's presence during the killing.

As far as Loras goes, there's a scene where Jaime arrests Brienne for killing Renly and puts her in a cell at Loras's behest after the two of them return to KL. When Loras accuses Brienne, Jaime sends him in to talk to her to hear her side of the story before he can punish her. After Loras talks to Brienne, he emerges and admits that he no longer thinks that Brienne did it. To me, this suggests that Loras now believes Brienne's story. In fact, he must -- no one actually believes that Renly died of natural causes. Loras can only realistically believe that Renly was killed by one of his opponents -- and since he is now a servant of the Lannisters then it is much less painful to believe that Stannis did it.

Okay, thanks..i think i was confused by the TV show about Brienne and Catelyn. Still i think there is too much mystery around Renly's death to give Stannis a social stigma. As long as he stays away from Brienne he'll not be doomed by Renly's murder.

[Antler's Fury]

Does it count that he had a shadow baby kill Renly, I mean, he was the one who ordered it. Aren't kinslayers accursed (Victarion won't kill Euron for this reason) so in the end will he fail just because he broke a sacred law?

Robert was considered a great war hero despite winning his crown by openly and unashamedly killing his second cousin Rhaegar at the Trident in front of a battlefield full of witnesses. There was apparently no stigma attached to this act specifically, though he was considered a usurper for overthrowing the Targ family. The taboo on kinslaying would be much easier to appreciate if the kin being slain, like Rhaegar, Renly, Karstark, etc. did not keep doing things that made kinslaying justified.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Is Stannis a kinslayer? Yes.

Is he doomed because of this act? LOL No.

[Minsc]

Robert was considered a great war hero despite winning his crown by openly and unashamedly killing his second cousin Rhaegar at the Trident in front of a battlefield full of witnesses. There was apparently no stigma attached to this act specifically, though he was considered a usurper for overthrowing the Targ family. The taboo on kinslaying would be much easier to appreciate if the kin being slain, like Rhaegar, Renly, Karstark, etc. did not keep doing things that made kinslaying justified.

George says the kinslayer prohibition mainly resonates on how close an individual is related. Thus, individuals might not consider Rhaegar and Robert close enough to condemn the latter for killing the former in battle.

Meanwhile, Renly and Stannis are much closer and Stannis didn't even have the honor to kill his brother in honorable combat, but instead used magical means to perform the deed.

Also, Stannis was the one who brought the conflict to Renly's doorstop and not the other way.

[Antler's Fury]

George says the kinslayer prohibition mainly resonates on how close an individual is related. Thus, individuals might not consider Rhaegar and Robert close enough to condemn the latter for killing the former in battle.

Rhaegar himself refers to Robert as his cousin, which suggests that they were indeed considered closely related. Moreover, if Karstark could accuse Robb of being a kinslayer despite being very distantly related, then Robert could very easily be accused of the same.

Meanwhile, Renly and Stannis are much closer and Stannis didn't even have the honor to kill his brother in honorable combat, but instead used magical means to perform the deed.

But does Westeros as a whole really know that? I mean, Loras knows that Brienne didn't do it, but to everyone else, Brienne seems like a much better candidate than a shadow.

Also, Stannis was the one who brought the conflict to Renly's doorstop and not the other way.

Just like Robert brought the fight to Rhaegar, and not the other way around.

[Minsc]

Rhaegar himself refers to Robert as his cousin, which suggests that they were indeed considered closely related. Moreover, if Karstark could accuse Robb of being a kinslayer despite being very distantly related, then Robert could very easily be accused of the same.

Karstark was only trying to save his own ass and be a dick on his way out.

But does Westeros as a whole really know that? I mean, Loras knows that Brienne didn't do it, but to everyone else, Brienne seems like a much better candidate than a shadow.

They still know that Stannis didn't kill him by honorable means on the battlefield.

Just like Robert brought the fight to Rhaegar, and not the other way around.

Rhaegar and his allied forces marched on Robert, while Renly had no intention on attacking Stannis until Stannis began to siege Storm's End.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Can we not simply agree upon the following?

1) Renly wronged Stannis, committing a sin

2) Stannis brought justice upon Renly, committing an arguably greater sin in the process

3) Stannis believed he acted for the greater good, out of his (arguably misplaced, although I don't think so) sense of duty.

4) while Renly also believed to be acting for the greater good, out his narcissism (which could be argued as misplaced as well, which I tend to think)

I predict, that therefore the discussion will boil down to whether who of them was right or wrong in his belief to be the better king.

However, Stannis was as much Kingslayer as Renly was an usurper. Even with the nature of Shadowbaby being unclear.

[otherbeef]

If Bloodraven is considered a kinslayer by westerosi Stannis has to be as well

[Antler's Fury]

Karstark was only trying to save his own ass and be a dick on his way out.

The very fact that he was trying to save himself suggests that it would in fact be considered kinslaying. If not, Robb would have no reason to spare Karstark.

They still know that Stannis didn't kill him by honorable means on the battlefield.

That's only if they think Stannis ordered the hit, which they don't necessarily know. Apparently, there are various rumors going around about Renly' death. For instance, given how obvious Brienne's feelings for him were, some people believe that Brienne killed him out of spite for spurning her.

Rhaegar and his allied forces marched on Robert, while Renly had no intention on attacking Stannis until Stannis began to siege Storm's End.

It was Robert who rose in rebellion in the first place, swearing to kill Rhaegar.

[Sullen]

There isn't any textual evidence supporting that he 'ordered it'. He believes Mel saw it in her fires, but ultimately feels guilty because he dreamt of being the shadow baby that killed Renly. I think it's a bit of denial, but he didn't order Mel to do it and it's a definite grey area as far as kinslaying.

Who says he wasn't the shadow baby that killed Renly?

I think Stannis is a kinslayer, and I believe he thinks so too, though I understand his justification in doing it.