Him of Many Faces

That's why they should have made the maester conspiracy part of the plot.

The show is the show, but we can't ignore some obvious things it spoiled no matter how much we want to keep the books separate from it :/ We know the broad strokes about her ending. She will rule no empire.

Actually let's just leave this be.

Yeah, I believe that child born in the tower is Jon.

I love reading Cersei too and she's my top 3 favorite POV. Her inner monologue is dark comedy gold.

He was born near the end of Robert's rebellion.

You have clearly misunderstood my comment about people needing to move on as me trying to send everyone who disagrees with R+L=J to a concentration camp to reread AGoT or something. Remind you, we are in a thread about theories we hate.

I have never seen this interpretation before. I never considered any of the Cersei-Jaime sex scenes to be rape, but rather some weird fucked up roleplay where Jaime has to "take" Cersei. And if they were intended to be rape then Cersei would surely have thoughts about them in Feast, like she does about Robert raping her, but she doesn't. She actually thinks that sex was only ever good with Jaime after she tries to rape Taena.

My comment about fanfiction was broader and not targeted at you. But yes, I am not humble and not open to every interpretation of this story. We do know what it signifies. Like I've said before, the blue roses are a motif, but yes, you could say that they are symbolically Jon.

Like Aero Hotah, Vic hasn't really done anything to generate a strong reaction from the readers. The most morally ambiguous thing he has done is getting an erection over not understanding what Asha was talking about. He's been a simple warrior, following his violent religion, reaving, fucking, being made fun at.

Ramsay rescued Winterfell from Theon Greyjoy. He took Moat Cailin without northmen casualties. He's quite the brilliant military strategist, yet he gets zero appreciation for his achievements, everyone is too focused on his less charming activities like torturing Theon. Meanwhile Stannis gets lauded as a great commander while his unsavory actions like killing his brother get too easily forgiven. I tried.

So far the thread has been stuck on the Catelyn-Cersei comparison, but the OP's post and linked video are about broader hypocrisies. I struggle to find good examples here because I feel like the fans have been critical of everyone, it would be an easier task to think of characters who deserve more slack.

Not all interpretations are valid and no text has unlimited ways of being interpreted. There comes a point where you are no longer interpreting text but writing fan fiction in your head. Like I said before, I do see L+R=J as a mystery that can be solved, not one of many possibilities to theorize, because a certain POV makes no sense without it. And this is why I do not like the parentage theories regarding Jon. I do not consider any other possibility than Lyanna and Rhaegar valid. I don't really know what else to say about this. I am not open to change my point of view unless someone can rethink the entire blue winter rose motif and symbolism.

Totally agree. Also relevant to this is her reaction to Stannis' letter about her incest: she really does convince herself of things.

Blue winter roses are associated in text with Lyanna, Rhaegar, death, and a newborn child. Yes, that's it, that's the evidence. Also I don't think I should copy paste all of this https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jon_Snow/Theories#Lyanna_Stark_and_Rhaegar_Targaryen here He would and he does - he does lie again, for Sansa, in front of the sept of Baelor. That action mirrors him swallowing his honor and lying about Jon. He is also fiercly against murdering Dany or Cersei's bastards.

Overall she makes good points but gives weak examples.

I believe she loves them in her own messed up way, it's just that for her the well-being of her kids and the source of her power are such interwoven concepts in her mind that one also means the other. Of course I'm making no argument she's a good parent in any way whatsoever - Tywin, Jaime and Kevan are all right in wanting to separate Cersei from her kids.

I'll watch the video although personally I've seen so much more passionate hatred for Catelyn from the fandom than for Cersei.

I completely understand even though we've only had one season of HotD so far.

Because no coherent timeline is given in the novels. Robert's Rebellion is an incomplete narrative in the novels and so far each of the five books has given only a little more information. However what does exist in these novels is the literary motif of the blue winter rose imagery. And that's what makes the Jon Snow's parentage, and related to that, Ned's actions, so obvious. I don't think people with more exotic interpretations should leave the conversation, but I do believe in the reminder that ASoIaF is a series of novels, literature. It should be analyzed as such. When making up assumptions and theories about the text, one should not forget how they would change the meaning of the story or character actions along the way. Ned Starks' relationship with Robert in AGoT is directly affected by Jon being his sister's and Rhaegar's child. They had a fallout over the murder of Rhaegar's children. They reconciliated over Lyanna's death. The old rift over killing children resurfaces when Dany gets pregnant and Robert wants to kill her child (and her). Ned was right to keep Lyanna's child's identity hidden because Robert didn't change, he was still okay with the murder of kids as seen by his furious reaction to the news about Dany. And when Ned finds out about Cersei's incest he will try to save the kids again because he correctly assumes Robert would kill them - why wouldn't he think that after Robert's reaction to previous child murders. Making Ned's flashbacks and dreams mean something different than R+L=J would change the entire narrative that we are given from Ned's POV. Like I said, R+L=J is the key to Ned Stark's behavior and relationship with Robert, it really isn't important to Jon as of yet in the story.

I don't agree. I see it as a solvable mystery in the first book. And it's far more relevant to Ned than it is to Jon. By understanding the blue winter rose dreams and flashbacks, we understand his relationship with Robert on the issue of child murder and why he felt the need to warn Cersei. By understanding that the honorable Ned swallowed his honor and pride and promised to raise Jon as his own (to save a child from murder) we understand why he will lie about the coup in front of the sept of Baelor (to save another child, Sansa, from murder). This is why I dismiss every alternative to Jon's parentage, because they will not align with Ned Stark's character arc in AGoT.

Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son is a matter of reading comprehension to me. I think the fandom should have long time ago (like decades ago) accepted that as a stone carved fact and moved on from bringing up alternatives.

Well, I've always found the Jojen Paste intriguing.

Show Alicent was made so weak and naive. Like seriously, she had no idea about the green council planning to crown her son? She had no ambition to make her son the king? Making Alicent a victim of patriarchy and Rhaenyra's childhood bestie was a mistake. She should have been a cunning player at the game, the spicy evil stepmother. So many ways to make her an interesting character since Fire and Blood only gives a template. Why not make her and Otto partners in crime? A father and daughter playing the long game together to take the Iron Throne for their family? Fire and Blood definitely makes it seem like their political goals were the same and they got along well.

One thing about what too many people don't get is that fiction is always written for the contemporary reader, not the people who are dead for centuries. If slavery is bad now then it was bad 2000 years ago as well, it doesn't matter if it was legal or socially acceptable then. When you read about the Slaver's Bay arc you should not think that enslaving people is okay in that made up fantasy world just like it's not in the real world. Same applies to a lot of other things like gender norms. George isn't writing about these things just for worldbuilding but also to make the reader reflect and compare them to real world counterparts just like every other work of history, fantasy or science fiction literature does.