Melifeather

If memory serves, I believe I read one time that GRRM rereads the Lord of the Rings trilogy every year. Its bound to have infiltrated into his consciousness and inspired many ideas in ASOIAF.

While it’s not explained how or when Ashara left Kings Landing, many readers think she was the fisherman’s daughter that Lord Borel (spelling?) of Sisterton saw with Ned and claimed was pregnant. If she had fled Kings Landing during the Rebellion and was the fisherman’s daughter, then she crossed the Bite with Ned and was also with him when he stopped at White Harbor so the Manderlys could have named their Wylla after her and maybe knew very well who she really was. The Daynes and Martels may not care about a lack of maidenhead or paramours, but the rest of Westeros does. Reducing matches to just two houses only makes the pool of suitable matches even smaller. Ashara’s father is dead. Young Edric is the current Lord of Starfall. I don’t think GRRM has provided a name or date of death for Ashara’s father, but I think it’s possible he died in the Rebellion.

We don't get a JonCon POV chapter until ADWD chapter 24 The Lost Lord and then a second, chapter 61 The Griffin Reborn. Not really enough to provide ample evidence as to whether or not he viewed Septa Lemore as being above him or as an equal or what. He's very careful to conceal Young Griff's identity, making him dye his hair, and having him tell people that he's his son. Identity concealment is important to his mission and It would be a bad habit to get into if JonCon was seen deferring or taking orders from Lady Lemore. Once Aerys was dead, Rhaella was no longer a queen. She crowned Viserys once she heard Aerys was dead. I guess she could be Queen Consort, but once Robert Baratheon took the throne by conquest, Viserys claim wasn't legitimate either. Who knows how long JonCon's group has been together? For Lady Lemore to be Rhaella she had to fake her death and leave her own children in the hands of Ser Willem Derry. Daenerys has memories that aren't easy to explain. She remembers Ser Willem as a bear of a man and she remembers a red door and lemon trees. All very mysterious and constantly discussed. Then there's Viserys comments about how they survived in the streets and his sarcastic "sweet sister" comments. He was angry about something and obsessed over his claim to the throne. Maybe there was an extra layer to that? Maybe he knew his mother was still alive and that Rhaegar's son Aegon was too and that she chose to split them up and go with her grandchild rather than her children?

Arya is a parallel of Lyanna right down to becoming "no one". Lyanna is dead and Arya is pretending to be dead. What makes me feel even more convinced of Ashara being Wylla are the inverted parallels with "the baby swap" as well as the parallels between Ashara's presumed suicide and Littlefinger pushing Lysa out the Moondoor. The assumed baby swap of Rhaegar's (false Bael) and Elia's child parallels the swap of Mance's (Bael's) son. At the same time it demonstrates that, not only is Rhaegar not Jon's father, neither is Lyanna his mother: Current - Lord Commander Jon Snow Past - Former Lord Commander Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers Current - North of the Wall Past - South in Kings Landing Current - Mance Raydar (Bael) - King Beyond the Wall Past - Rhaegar Targaryen (false Bael) - the presumptive heir Current - Craster was Gilly's father and husband, and Monster's true father Past - Rickard Stark was Lyanna's father, but not Jon's father Current - Monster's mother was Gilly (Craster's daughter) Past - Jon's mother was "Wylla" (not Rickard's daughter) Current - (Bael) Mance’s son Monster Past - (false Bael) Rhaegar’s son Aegon Current - Gilly’s son was not a bastard, yet a child of incest Past - Wylla’s (Ashara) son was not a child of incest, yet he is a bastard Current - Samwell Tarly claims paternity of Bael's Monster, but he's not the father Past - Ned Stark claims paternity of Jon, and he is the true father. False Bael is not Jon's father. Current - Sam takes Bael's child (who was swapped for Gilly's son) to his father's home - safe away from the Wall and Melisandre's desire to sacrifice a king's son. Past - Ned takes his own child to his father's home while false Bael's (Rhaegar) son was swapped for the Pisswater Prince and taken away to safety. Here are the parallels between Ashara's suicide and Lysa's murder: I think Ned brought Ashara to Winterfell with the intention of marrying her after Robert's Rebellion. Jon was born at Winterfell "in the crypts", because his mother is believed to be dead. After Ned was forced into a marriage alliance with the Tullys, Ned returns home to help Ashara return home, but convinces her to leave Jon. This is paralleled later when LC Jon Snow convinces Gilly to leave Monster. In order to understand why Ashara would want to become Wylla, you have to recall what happened to Lady Lollys Stokeworth. Lollys was raped by multiple men - any one of them could be the father of her child Ashara was said to have "danced" with many men - we know she got pregnant, because Barristan Selmy said she was. Lollys prospects for marriage were bleak. When it comes to marriage alliances between houses, an intact maidenhead is the required price. Lollys has an older sister named Falyse, which looks like it should be pronounced as "false-ey" or false sister. Ashara and Lyanna were like sisters so I think Lollys is Ashara and Falyse is Lyanna. Falyse also goes missing and nobody knows where she is except Cersei. Pregnant Lollys's best prospect for marriage is Bronn, a sellsword that became a knight after the Battle of the Blackwater - a noble achievement, but also one that is viewed with distaste. Bronn doesn't come from some noble house so he is viewed as a "jumped up" knight. What were Ashara's marital options after giving birth? She comes from the ancient, important, noble house of Dayne. I think she came up with the Wylla idea as a way to escape a marriage beneath her station and have the added benefit of remaining in her family home. If you think about it, it protects Ned too. His relationship with Ashara could have been seen as fraternizing with the enemy since House Dayne was on the side of the Crown during the Rebellion. Here are the inverted parallels I see between Lysa's murder and Ashara's presumed suicide: Petyr = Alayne's father Father = of Ashara Sansa = Alayne Ashara = Wylla “live” Lysa = Sansa’s aunt, forced out the Moon Door “already dead” Unknown body = Ashara’s aunt/uncle, pushed off the tower Moon Door (a narrow weirwood door that stands between two slender pillars) Palestone Tower Lysa intended to kill Sansa/Alayne Ashara/Wylla pretended to kill herself I think Alayne is viewed with much disdain since Petyr is also viewed with contempt. We're familiar with up-jumped knights, but Petyr is an up-jumped Lord. When the marriage was proposed to Harry the Heir, he pretty much thought Alayne was beneath his station which I think is a nod towards what Ashara thought about her marriage prospects after giving birth. She didn't want to marry beneath her station. She found it as distasteful as Harry did of his match with Alayne. Lady Lenore is more likely Rhaella Targaryen. There isn't a description of what Rhaella looked like, but you have to remember that her grandmother was Bella Blackwood, aka Black Betha due to her black hair and eyes. Who better to care for baby Aegon than his own grandmother? After successive miscarriages, Aegon became suspicious of Rhaella and she spent much of her time with septas. It would be easy for her to assume the identity of a septa since she spent so much time with them. Circling back to how the Daynes would feel about Ned...who exactly was left at Starfall after the Rebellion? I suspect that it was only Ashara and the household guards and servants.

I believe that Wylla is Ashara Dayne living in her father's home at Starfall under an assumed identity much like Alayne is actually Sansa, pretending to be Littlefinger's daughter living in his household. The Dayne family tree is sparse. Edric Dayne is supposedly the son of an unnamed brother of Ashara and named after Ned Stark. Why is he not worthy of the sword Dawn? If his age wasn't inconveniently a year younger than Sansa's I'd be tempted to believe he's Ned's son. Edric told Arya that when he was born his mother wasn't able to produce enough milk to nurse him so Wylla became his milk-mother. The thing is, women don't produce milk indefinitely. Jon Snow was born in 283 and the wiki estimates that Edric was born 4 years later in 287, so how did Wylla continue to lactate? Unless Edric is older and closer to Jon in age. Alternately, Wylla would need to give birth to another child between Jon and Edric to keep the milk supply going or be a continual wetnurse. If my suspicions that Jon Snow is Ashara and Ned's son, then he could claim the sword Dawn.

I didn't mean to imply that we're against revisiting old topics. On the contrary! We enjoy digging these things up and sometimes we find that we've moved away from a specific theory and towards another. So, have at it! Post whatever interests you! I had a momentary lapse and forgot about how Torrhen could have fit with the wildling origin story since he's the Stark lord that famously bent the knee. You know, the weirwood arrows that Brandon Stark was to shoot at Aegon's dragons might not have been literal, but metaphorical if Brandon was actually the greenseer in the lower level of the crypts.

The Wall was inspired by GRRM's visit to Hadrian's Wall in England, but with regards to our story the Wall is more closely positioned with Antonine's Wall further north. It does seem likely that Moat Cailin was possibly an earlier "Hadrian's" wall, but was destroyed. It's heavily suggested that the Children called down their hammer of waters from that location and that's why it was destroyed, so what if the "help" that the Children gave the Last Hero was the hammer? The ancient timeline is a bit fuzzy, but the generally accepted idea is that the Hammer occurred much earlier than the Last Hero and that it was part of the war against the invading Andals, and that afterward the Children were pushed further north. If the Andals won and the Children defeated, then the Starks were also defeated. The wildling's origin story includes their lord dying and their refusal to accept the dead lord's son as their new lord - that business about not bending the knee to him is the reason they are imprisoned behind the Wall. Did the dead lord's son conspire with the Andals? It could be one possible answer to the mystery in the crypts. There is also the theory that the earliest Night Watch watched from atop several walls like a curtain wall that encloses a great castle like Winterfell. Perhaps an ancient weirwood throne where a greenseer once sat is what's lying in the lower levels of the crypts, warded behind iron bars. Maybe the greenseer was also the dead lord Stark? All of these theories have been discussed over the years in the past Heresy threads.

The assumption that Winterfell is Winter + fell is just a theory, but it is one that I tend to believe, because of the ancient mythos that the Children helped the Last Hero (singular) defeat the Others. Then there's that conflicting song that the Nights Watch (multiple) rode out to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. Add to that the mythos that Bran the Builder built Winterfell and you've got a collection of stories that seem to hint that the Starks have Winterfell because they participated in defeating the Others. It is said that the Others bring the cold winds or alternatively that the cold winds bring the Others, so "winter" is very much associated with the Others. Therefore, defeating the Others would be to overcome winter, thus winter fell. When I say "Others" I'm visually imagining white walkers, because white walkers cannot exist without winter - BUT I very much believe that the wildlings ARE also the Others and are responsible for creating white walkers. I base this theory on what we know about how Melisandre births (black) shadows. It only makes sense to me that white walkers are also (white) shadows and therefore need a human to draw life-force from in order to exist. The only difference between the black and white shadows is that the cold preserves and freezes the mist used in their creation. The black shadows are also made of mist, but the "fire" (sunlight) consumes them. The white walker shadows are known to avoid the sun, because the heat of light would melt them.

Tiger Lily sends her condolences as well. She's an aging, fat, orange tabby cat, but she got along with dogs. Doesn't care much for tomcats however, especially black and white ones that rhyme with schmittens.

I can see a scenario where Jon's spirit goes into Ghost only to return to his body once magic is invoked. Either Melisandre will perform the rite or perhaps Val, but I don't see him remaining inside of Ghost. I think skinchangers have to slip into other humans while they are still alive and have the strength. Varamyr likely wasn't strong enough (he was dying) when he tried to enter Thistle and that's why he wasn't successful. The Starks are tethered to their wolves so the connection is already there. It's like his second body.

At this moment, Jon was thinking of leading a ranging party to deal with the mutineers at Crasters and at the same time, find out what happened to the rest of wildlings scattered to the Haunted Forest after Stannis defeated Mance. This woman is obviously not Mel. But who else might she be? I think I know the answer. What book and chapter is the above quote from? It won't come up for me on asearchoficeandfire . Edited to add: Never mind. I see now that the quote was from an earlier text, one that GRRM changed. It is dumb though, because it sounds like Melisandre is telling Jon that she saw herself in the vision and that's why Jon laughed and said it was absurd.

Whoops, my bad, Osha.

I'm not so sure that Asha is no longer with Rickon. When Ghost/Jon thinks of his brothers and sisters he doesn't think of them as dualities. They are one and the same. I believe Rickon's other half is Asha.

You may not be a fan of my parallel inversion theory, but I believe there are key parallels between the Water Gardens in Dorne and the subterranean castles of the Westerlands. In AFFC chap 2, The Captain of Guards, Areo Hotah takes note of the rotting and dropping blood oranges highlighted against the sound of the splashing waters of the Water Gardens. Symbolically the visuals and audibles evoke events from Tywin's past when he annihilated two families, the Tarbecks and the Reynes. Doran Martel is an inverted parallel of Tywin. His gout an external and physical manifestation of Tywin's internal seething hatred. Not only is Casterly Rock inside a mountain, so was Castamere. Named after a nearby pool of water, Castamere began as a gold and silver mine like Casterley Rock. Nine-tenths of the castle was subterranean. Tywin had the entrances buried beneath stone, and then dammed the pool’s stream and diverted it into a mine entrance, flooding the underground chambers. The Reynes had taken refuge at Castamere. With ample food in storage, Ser Reynard Reyne abandoned the surface fortifications once his soldiers were in Castamere’s tunnels. Tywin ordered the entrances sealed with tons of stone, earth, and soil so that there was no way in or out. Over the course of three days, Tywin had his men dam a nearby stream and divert it to the mine entrance. Water easily found its way through the tiny gaps in the rubble. None of the three hundred men, women, and children within emerged from the tunnels. I guess I had made the assumption that Casterly Rock was a larger version of Castamere. As for rickets...maybe the lack of sunlight was partially to blame for Tyrion's deformities? I realize he's a dwarf, but if you google rickets and dwarfism there are connections.

The dragons were an afterthought, but not the Targaryens. They do season the story with allot of flavor, but their existence isn't driving the story. I had a brief discussion the other day about the differences between idea, concept, and premise. The "idea" of ASOIAF is a fantasy world where magic exists. The "concept" is to suggest that there are secrets hidden and that there are forces working to either keep them concealed or to reveal them. The "premise" is to have an archetypical hero (or heroine) that will save Westeros or at least as many humans as they can. The dragons therefore are neither the idea, concept, or premise of ASOIAF unless you believe the dragons will become the heroes? They exist because of magic, but so do a few other things like the connection between skinchangers and their animals, white walkers, glass candles, and shadow babies. There is a secret ritual that seems to be necessary to bond dragons to a human, but again this secret is not the key concept.

I think the show borrowed heavily from fan theories from this very forum. George shared character arcs so that the show wouldn't go that route and spoil the story for book readers. Take Stannis for example. Did it seem to you that he was being set up for a defeat camped out in the snow outside Winterfell? Or do book readers expect Stannis to win and take Winterfell? I do, however, expect that Brienne will get to kill Stannis, because that scenario was setup long ago when she pledged her sword to Lady Catelyn.

I'm sorry. I'm not getting the same impressions that you are, but no worries! It's probably because I'm an obnoxious, pretentious analyzer!

Okay, this discussion may be above my pay grade! I watched the Rothfuss segment, but I did not get the impression that he was showing scorn. He was more dismayed that the deeper levels were being revealed where people would read someone's discovery before finding it for themselves. Like GRRM, Rothfuss wants his readers to enjoy his books and be surprised when they uncover a hidden meaning and to discuss their findings with friends, but it sounds to me like he doesn't like public forums. I suppose he views them as being too spoilery?

I find this statement confusing with regard to how I understand the term "literary concept". If anything ASOIAF has multiple concepts. One striking example is the North remembers and that Winterfell has forgotten, not to mention that there is a growing threat coming from the North. Let me back this up a bit with the differences between "idea", "concept", and "premise". The "idea" of ASOIAF is a fantasy world where magic exists. The "concept" is to suggest that there are secrets hidden and that there are forces working to either keep them concealed or to reveal them. The "premise" is to have an archetypical hero (or heroine) that will save Westeros or at least as many humans as they can. Are you saying ASOIAF has no concept?

The reason why GRRM has written so much about the Targaryens is because doing so won't spoil the ending of ASOIAF. I suspect that the SheWolves tale is too spoilery.

I was snooping around your profile after reading your Jonquil/bees/Sansa essay and stumbled upon this post. I have to say, I think you and I have more in common than you might think! I see almost the exact same things you are seeing, but a couple years later than you. I’m going to link a current post where I was proposing much the same as you. I hope you’ll read it along with an OP that I did on Shadrich. Links to both: Shadrich OP: https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/469/harrenhal-twilight-zone-play post link:

We could discuss the most far-fetched theories we have in the next Heresy. That might be fun! They must be at least plausible, but I'd love me some tin foil to laugh at during the holiday!

We do like to explore unpopular theories, but Heresy does not have any set theories that it endorses or presents as having come to a consensus, although Black Crow does have a number of his own that he rolls out from time to time. The purpose of Heresy is to provide a platform where we can freely discuss alternate theories or ideas that don’t get a lot of traction anywhere else, and do so with good humor and respect for all participants.

I've got a number of theories that I hope will be confirmed or debunked in the next book, but I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion thread. That's not what this thread is for. So if anyone wants to discuss any of the following, please bring it the current Heresy thread. 1) Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents 2) Ashara is Wylla and still lives at Starfall under that identity 3) Rhaella is Septa Lenore 4) the Lannisters orchestrated Lyanna's abduction in order to undermine Rhaegar using a suit of armor that looked just like his. 5) The Knight of the Laughing Tree was an instance of consensual skin changing with a bit of magic. Howland was the knight and Lyanna skin changed the horse. 6) the wildlings are the Others 7) the blizzard at Winterfell and the surrounding north is the Wall disintegrating 8) Lyanna was found in the ruins of Whitewalls 9) Maegor's Holdfast is the real tower of joy 10) the three Kingsguard, Whent, Hightower, and Dayne, were guarding Elia and the children. Ned and his men fought them during the Sack, keeping them engaged and distracted, while Gregor and Amory raped and killed Elia and the children. 11) Young Griff is Aegon. 12) the titled chapters beginning with AFFC tell two stories with one hidden amongst the parallels, symbolism, and metaphors.

I wish I had something more meaningful to contribute than what I'm about to say...IMO Renly's peach is symbolic of a maidenhead. Peaches look very much like a woman's pubis mound - camel toe and all! Renly and Stannis were parley-ing, and under normal circumstances when two opponents are negotiating, a marriage alliance with a maiden is part of the transaction. Think back to Catelyn's transaction with Walder Frey. Marriage alliances were made, not just for Robb, but for Arya too. Two maidens were needed to seal the deal: a Frey maiden and a Stark maiden. When Brienne encounters some former Brave Companions that included Rorge and Biter, Biter took a bite out of Brienne's cheek. Symbolically he was taking a bite out of a "peach" - Brienne is still a maiden and her maidenhead intact. I'm actually glad that GRRM didn't have Biter bite Brienne in the "peach" which is very near a pair of "cheeks". The Reach is known for growing peaches, but the true meaning behind "the bite" might be an indication that the Lannisters were stealing maidens rather than securing marriage alliances? Like you say, in the near future the Lannisters do make a marriage alliance with Rohanne Weber - what was Gerold Lannister? Her sixth husband???