DMC

I haven't looked at this thread in months, but you've sufficiently worried me with that phrasing.

I agree that Owens is best an an anti-hero face rather than a heel (although he does that great as well). And yeah, he's one of the best they got on the mic. Maybe the best.

Just read Vince hired Heyman and Bischoff to be the "executive directors" of Raw and Smackdown, respectively. Why didn't Triple H tell him, "hey Vince, it's not 1998, they're not the competition anymore, you're not hiring them away from anything?" Although jokes aside I'll always be in favor of Heyman being involved more in creative. But Bischoff? Really?

I don't, if they coulda sold out the United Center (~23,000 capacity), which that result suggests they probably would have, feel like that woulda generated more buzz. But yeah of course it's hindsight.

Just saw All Out sold out in 15 minutes. Perhaps they should have sprung for a larger venue - the Sears Centre appears to have a capacity of around 11-12,000.

Yeah Taker needs to stop, I really don't get it with him. I mean, why does he need the money? Just stop. With Goldberg, I get that if WWE is gonna give him a bunch of money for minutes of work, why the fuck not? But he needs to stop too. Accept that you're too old (*stares at Triple H angrily*).

I can't keep track what's "canon" and what isn't in Star Wars lore anymore (and don't really care), but I believe one could argue it'd be P+L=J.

No, agree there. If the North is granted independence, I expect the II, Dorne, and maybe even the Vale will demand independence as well. But I think that was just a way for them to make up for the travesty they did to Sansa, expect she'll end up Lady of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North.

Yeah, lots of chatter out there that he's gonna debut at All Out, but just seems to be the typical IWC conjecture and "evidence" from what I've seen. We'll see, hope so! Seems like the perfect opportunity, so I'm sure AEW is trying their damndest.

It's certainly a possibility that D&D lied to IHS, but even though I think they suck for the way they ended it (and really the last 4 seasons), I have no reason to believe they would lie to one of their actors about something like that. D&D promised not to publicly state what the differences are, but it's unrealistic to think they didn't discuss what came from Martin and didn't with their actors. They're not responsible if one of those actors then goes public with that information, especially because he was probably told not to. As for IHW "misinterpreting" something from D&D - or D&D misinterpreting Martin - I don't find these to really be possible. Bran being king and whether it came from Martin or not are pretty damn hard things to misinterpret. Either somebody is lying, or it's true. And I can't think of any reason not to give D&D or IHW the benefit of the doubt. I might have less than zero confidence in D&D's ability to make their Star Wars project anything watchable based on their performance, but I'm not aware of any hard evidence that they're liars.

I honestly don't know where this 97% figure is coming from - haven't read everything on this thread. But if he's saying it's that much more faithful, then yeah, I think it's fair to interpret that as him saying it's pretty damn faithful to the books. I mean, I've never given a 97 grade to a student and been like "well, I think you suck and totally don't get the material, but here." I have no conjecture on how it will play in the books, other than it will certainly be better. But it's entirely possible Bran knows he's eventually going to become king, yet simply understands that he can't prevent the travesties necessary for that possibility. He may be a god, but he's not God. I agree the way the show depicted it makes him look like, said this before, a lousy coldhearted bastard. As Connie tells Michael Corleone. But it could easily be written otherwise. Anyway, I love how there's a link posted a page back about IHW affirming it was Martin's idea, and y'all are still like "no, he's wrong!" LOL. Da Nile isn't just a river in Egypt.

I do wonder how long CM Punk can hold out on the appeal of saying fuck you to Vince and Paul by going to AEW.

I think it makes perfect sense that Hodor has some type of deficiency and/or autism from birth and Bran..influenced that problem. Hodor is still able in very many ways. My point is let's not call him mad or mindless.

Um, who says Hodor went mad? Neither in the show nor the books did he go mad, thus far. He had an episode in the show, one that was very similar to what Thistle experienced, if you'll remember: If you think that's apples and oranges to what could happen - or even what did happen to Hodor in the show - then, well, you're very bad at fruit classification. No we don't and no you didn't. For the last time, he could have always been mute, had the episode, then started saying Hodor. You have not provided any evidence otherwise. Again, who said Hodor was mindless? This is becoming borderline offensive. LOL, this is your interpretation. I'm not saying it's wrong - in fact I mentioned it as a possibility. But don't act like you know what Bloodraven meant in that moment. None of us know his head. I'm saying Bloodraven wouldn't be trying to reach Daeron II from that tree until Daeron was already dead. Thus, it's fundamentally different than Bran's situation over the next two books. Oh no, I didn't mean to suggest either. I'm just saying they can take their skills elsewhere - if their body can take it - and use the weirwoods as a source. This is literally what happens in the final pages we have of Bran's POV, so I don't think it's crazy.

Once could argue Thistle's reaction - scratching her eyes and screaming - is actually foreshadowing Hodor's reaction to Bran entering his brain in the past. So, I guess we have different perspectives on the meaning of the Varamyr prologue. Perhaps BR is not as powerful as Bran. Perhaps BR understood the adverse results that would happen from this - as they seemed to for Hodor. Perhaps he did guide people by subtle means, for all we know. He certainly guided Bran regarding his dream in AGOT, when he was not physically close (although I do assume he was temporally). We can argue semantics all day. He tells Bran that literally immediately after Bran's first try when he cries out to Ned - in the past. I take that as a warning. Sorry if you don't. Well, BR certainly was not in that tree before Daeron II died, so it's quite possible he was never trained like Bran just was by the CotF during that time. As for Shiera..who knows. We'll see, I think there's still much more to learn about that relationship.

Apologies for the delayed response. We have (generously) about 5 pages on Bran being a greenseer. That is far too little to draw any conclusions off of in terms of what the books make "exceedingly unlikely" or not. And the combination of Bloodraven immediately insisting Bran can't change the past (in a doth protest too much way) - right after Bran pretty much instantly rendered a reaction from Ned in the past when he sees him on his first try - is decent textual suggestion that Bran will, actually, affect the past in some way. Not in a stupid time-travely way like some theories you see around, but something resembling what happened with ShowHodor? Yeah, I think that's possible - maybe that's why Bloodraven was so quick to warn him. Note the rest of the series of greenseeing Bran does at the end of his final ADWD chapter is after they remove him from the throne and he goes to sleep in his chamber, which suggests the skills can be mobile, at least for a time.

But, it doesn't. My original point, which clearly I did not articulate well, was that it still is possible he never said anything until something akin to what happened in the show transpired, and only then did he start saying Hodor. That is why I was asking about if she ever mentioned when, specifically.

For the third time, I'm asking if it's ever confirmed when he started saying Hodor. Because I don't believe she mentions that. Well, they were obviously laying in wait outside the thing. Not sure an entire army is the wisest strategy, I don't think they wanted to raise attention to the location.

I'm well aware. What I'm not aware of is any canon statement about when Walder started only saying Hodor. That was my question. Uh..right, because the first sentence screams of good sense. He'll merge with the weirwood gate? What does that even mean? It is very odd that they haven't already gone after Bloodraven, definitely. But then again, we don't know, maybe they have. We don't have his POV. I have been arguing for things on the show I think are plausible on this thread, yes. There are plenty of things I think the show did that are implausible, or downright wrong, or infuriating, but there's nothing there to argue about, right?

I don't see Hodor never speaking normally as confirmation of anything. It just may mean he was always incapacitated in such a manner. I'm unaware of or unable to recall any confirmation of when exactly he started only saying "Hodor." But please, correct me if there is, I definitely could be wrong. Um, yeah there is. What is Hodor's reason for existing as a character in the first place? You may disagree, but in my view it's pretty clearly as Bran's protector. So if he dies screaming "hold the door," there is every reason to assume he's doing so to save Bran. I would argue there's no reason to believe that 'hold the door' has anything BUT to do with saving Bran's life. Like, seriously, what are the alternatives here? I tend to agree, but they clearly have a blood feud of some sort with the CotF, whether the latter created them or not. And it's quite possible they view Bloodraven and/or Bran as a particular threat to their designs. We know Mel has seen them in her visions (and interprets them as a threat as well). It's not really a stretch to think the Others may also be aware of their abilities/potential influence. If the Others attack the cave, they will certainly attack it and cover as many entrances as they are aware of. But that doesn't mean it's not still possible there is some kind of secret door that will lead them to salvation only the CotF are aware of. Between the Red Keep, the foreshadowing about Tyrion's role with the sewers of Casterly Rock, and Winterfell, the books are pretty damn into secret passageways. Not for nothing, but this discussion reminded me of a scene in Donnie Darko about the literary meaning of the phrase "cellar door" (specifically when Drew Barrymore tells Donnie she got fired). Googling it, seems there's more basis for that than I was aware of, and could be of some relevance. No, I don't; and yes, it does. If 'hold the door' is about saving Meera and Jojen that would be..particularly anticlimactic. As for the Black Gate being the source of the Wall's spells, meh, I suppose that's more compelling and I'm open-minded to the idea. But your arguments are plainly not convincing enough to dismiss the very high probability that you're just simply wrong about this.

I want to respond to this generally because it's a common dismissive critique. That is an assumption. We don't know if the cave has doors or not. The CotF have clearly been occupying the cave for a very very long time, there's plenty of textual evidence there. That they could have built a door or two during that time isn't, like, some insane proposal. Nor is that we simply haven't been informed of such door(s) to this point. Moreover, from my perspective the contention there aren't any doors in the cave only further weakens the "Bran stays in the cave" position. If you accept "hold the door" will happen in some respect, it follows that it's based on Bran's survival. If it's not in the cave, it then follows that Bran is no longer in the cave. Coming up with convoluted explanations like this... ...just make the argument seem more silly. Why does Hodor-Bran need to make this last stand at the Black Gate? What's the purpose of this sacrifice? Let's be frank about it, Hodor is a dispensable character. So who is Hodor-Bran saving in this scenario?

Yes. It's a fantasy story. Do you honestly think Bran could get to that cave in the first place if we're talking about realism? He will presumably be infinitely more capable of acquiring help on the way back. Because he was accessed through present-Bran in Hodor's past. Will it happen like that in the books? No idea, but that's pretty standard time-travel logic. I did think that was maybe the most Tolkein-ish part of his story, having the gate talk. I think you may very well be right that Hodor is holding a door that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the cave, sorry should have clarified that earlier. But what I don't think is it's anything other than Hodor holding the door so Bran can survive (and obviously leave the cave). That's the entire point of that moment.

I think it's really silly to suggest that-wise, in my opinion, and I don't care who's doing it. "Hold the door" is essentially confirmed as canon, in some way. If Hodor isn't holding the door for Bran to leave the cave, what the hell is he holding the door for? There's much else I could say, but I don't see how you mental gymnastic your way around that one. Your primary defense is Bran can't leave the cave because he's a cripple? The same kid who traveled all the way up there - as a cripple? M'kay. Oh, who knows - and that's a creepy way of putting it, btw. Women have sex at a very young age in Martin's society (and do in the real world too!). I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Arya hooks up with Gendry, but doesn't stay with him. I like this idea as well.

My thinking for a long time has been she would help Dany on an expedition to Essos - to finish the latter's job in Volantis etc. But, considering how poorly it was handled and the backlash they must have known they were gonna get, I do now assume Dany's heel turn comes from Martin's ending, including Jon killing her (which I assume is the third "WTF" moment D&D referred to years ago). So, in that way I've always thought Arya would be an adventurer of sorts if she survives, regardless of the show. I don't see her playing some type of role with a small council, or helping out at Winterfell, that's not her. I also don't think she'd go beyond the wall, especially if Jon is as well. That's a little too on the nose, and would not be what I'd define as bittersweet (it'd be wholly sweet if the two of them ended up like that). I have always anticipated something similar as well, I think it bookends the series in a great way. However, that does not mean Bran has to stay in the cave the entire time. Your stubborn insistence on that in the face of tonnage of evidence is kind of adorable, though, I suppose. Been thinking about it, and since you mention this, a great way to merge Bran and Arya's endings is it's ___ years later, and Bran's last sight before laying his eyes to an eternal rest is a woman approaching the Winterfell weirwood - a woman that looked strikingly similar to a girl that entranced a prince lifetimes ago, or even a tomboyish sister to a young boy that climbed too much - returned from the far west. She smiled at the weirwood, and Bran smiled back. Again, I don't get why you (and others) are so hung up on the ages. Wanna know what I was willing to - and did - do at 12-13? A lot of impulsive things. In that way one could argue it's more logical she'd embark on such an expedition at such an age compared to when she matures.