sweetsunray

BTW I was rereading Arianne I of tWoW and then two sad things jumped out: Valena Toland rides a red horse and has red hair, and her younger sister has red hair too. House Toland has a place in my heart with their backstory how their sigil ended up being a green dragon eating its tail on a golden field. They even mention the story to Arianne. I will mourn the death of these girls. Their news about krakens being drawn to blood and dead bodies floating at the broken arm suggests that while Dorne is looking at KL and SE, sending spears and defenses away from Dorne is a massive mistake when the Kraken Euron is on his war path.

Ward-stuff. A rather obvious one: the army divisions of van, main and rear of battle formation in the middle ages were "guards" or "wards". The van or vanguard comes from the French avant-garde and the rearguard from arrier-garde. This can be extended to sword duel positions of the sword in comparison to the body. These too are called "guards" or "wards".

He was already reborn into being a wolf-guy. He went into the Wolf's Den a Stannis' man, he unwittingly came out a Stark man. I don't think he'll even get a chance at rejoining Stannis, ending up believing he's dead (while Stannis does heroic stuff), throwing in his efforts to help and save the Stark kids. By the time he does learn of Stannis being alive after all it will be because of the most horrendous thing imaginable, and he wouldn't even want to.

He's a knight of the mind, a far better one than any maester... a "master mind" of the "game of heroes" (rather than game of thrones). In the "game of heroes" one must make sure "not to lose your mind" Yeah, some people enjoy making a boy of 8 or a girl of 10 into monsters. Some do so purely out of spite, because deep down they do know where this is headed, but wish for another outcome. Others argue "trope conversion", which basically means they too know where it is headed. They seem to just like for a boy of 8 who is going through "coming of age arc in empathy" and recognize to have a hero arc to turn out "surprise!" to be the villain. The color codes, the themes, the subtle but profoundly deep magic, George being a fanboy of a four colored weird superhero, nature fighting back in defense, his physical limitations, and the choice of fight (against the Others), the maturing empathy. He will make mistakes. Some of his efforts will have ghastly results, and these will teach him "less is more" and only make him more merciful.

All the wrong Dr. Weird's will turn out to be fools. But he's a fun example He was a Hand He was a leader of the Golden Company => a golden hand He was believed to be dead =>a ghost He wears a wolf cloak => which makes us think of grey/white Starks But his wolf cloak is a red one => the wrong wolf He saves "fool" Yolo (Tyrion) from drowning => hero, but that's not how it's supposed to go He acquires greyscale => grey ghost His hand and fingers are showing signs => becoming a grey hand Greyscale => leads to madness, losing mind => losing your mind = fool

Cat didn't know the Mormont women really, until riding south with them. And I would think that Alysanne would freak out Cat on what could become of Arya, though Cat recognizes that Dacey can be graceful too.

It doesn't always work: cfr. Blackwoods and Brackens. They intermarried often and regularly to promote peace, and thus basically are close families in blood. Some Brackens may be closer to Blackwoods than some of the Blackwood cousins have been at times, I'm sure. Nevertheless hostilities resume regularly.

He doesn't need to read the message. It's enough for him to know it's meant for Dragonstone, and Ned must tell him that in order for Pycelle to pick the correct raven. I also don't see why you would expect Ned to watch Pycelle pick a raven and see it off. He'd just write a letter, seal it and ask Pycelle to send it when Pycelle shuffles in to visit the Hand in his tower. Pycelle just nods and say he will make sure of it and take care of it. And that's the end of it. Ned Stark never suspects Pycelle of being other than a maester doing his duty, just like Luwin.

Might check out the moth mans: Ned sees LF with moths coming out of his mouth in a hallucination/vision in the black cells. With Ned's early depiction as a Stark with a sword beneath the WW, and then ending up in the "dark" and seeing stuff, and after death talking via WW tree, in crypt dreams and his face on a WW tree in Jon's weird dream... Ned seems to be alluded to as having latent but undeveloped greenseer abilities. Maybe his third eye opened in those black cells? He just didn't a ww tree around or a trainer. In fact, he was fostered to the Arryns (pure Andal origin) and lived at the Eyrie (no heart tree) and Gates of the Moon (first Andal keep, no ww), and that around Bran's age of aCoK. Sort of makes me wonder whether Ned may have had some weirwood dreams at WF as a young boy, and where Luwin drugged Bran to stop his dreams (didn't work), Rickard's maester convinced his lord to send Ned to be fostered where there are no weirwoods. Stannis' Richard Thorpe who has deathmoths for his sigil

@SaffronLady I ordered mine from Amazon, 2nd hand. And Dreamsongs I was the one I had George sign at Titancon in 2019. He was really pleased at having to sign writing of his that wasn't aSoIaF. I would be recitent about "single" colors being neutral. Pure (scarlet) red is never ever neutral for George for example. It's a different code than the green-gold + grey-white though. And green is by itself also code for "nature": wild, nature, counter-balancing, ... And yes nature has a violent side to it and can be aggressive. In George's mind, green isn't peacenick treehugging. But that's not the reason I would not jump to conclusions on that alone. A house can be part of a faction. For instance we say the "Greens" but their sigil was black with a golden three-headed dragon. And Aegon's Sunfyre was golden, whereas Aemon's was Vhagar (green-bronze). So, we do have a coming together of the green-gold here. It's just less obvious. For me they are the "wild" dragons dealing with black-red, but from the inside out. The necessary destruction from the inside. I consider the Lannisters, especially Cersei, having a similar role. She's a villain, but also necessary to bring the old wrong order down. Theon has a similar destructive role at WF, killing Septon Chayle, and then Ramsay burning WF (like the sept). It's a type of using "poison to fight poison" concept. The Martell sigil by itself doesn't work, but when we combine it with the name of their castle Sunspear on the Greenblood and them finalizing the hiding tactic that House Toland used (and all the other Dornish houses) during the First Dornish War, we can see that all of Dorne is part of the Dr. Weird role in that example of history. I don't think so. The Starks is the sole family in the entire series that combine the four colors of green-gold with grey-white, have a Ghost. George kept both Jon and Bran well away from participating in fighting for or against the Iron Throne (the asoiaf's rubies, and in hiding). Bran has also shown he's not into revenge with Theon at Winterfell. The first time Theon heard the tree, he heard weeping. The second time a leaf of the tree touched Theon's brow. Those are not the actions of a boy seeking revenge. I do see him attempting to skinchange "fools" in order to save people or a situation. Oberyn was a fool (brainless), because he kept fighting a fight that was already over, both in relation to Elia being death for nearly two decades, but even in his duel with the Mountain. He had given the Mountain the deathstroke already, but he wanted to prolong it to savour it, out of revenge, which was his undoing. Neither Bran or Jon do this, despite their failings. For example Jon loved Ygritte. He grieved her. He burned her remains. She has become an integral part of his prior life. But he's not clinging to her. He let her go and is moving on, because there are more important issues to tackle. Bran's twice merciful response to Theon at WF shows something similar: grief, pain, but also empathy and mercy and accepting that Theon deeply regrets his choices and actions. Yes, bronze shines like the sun and thus is the equivalent of gold. And oxidized copper is green instead of orange-reddish. Qhorin is "grey" right? And also a "horse" (with his braid). I think you are correct that the cave where they spend their last night before the confrontation with the "Lord of Bones" and his wildling band acts as a type of metaphorical time travel portal. After the cave and capture by Rattleshirt, we go to Jon in aSoS, and the first paragraph of his first chapter describes them coming down one of the mountains of the Frostfangs through "mists"/"fogs", and from that vantage point, Jon sees the Milkwater like glass and another river alongside it of campfires on the dark ground, in the darkness. Jon just "time traveled" to the days of the Long Night, Dawn and the sword of flame. One of the first things he asks of Mance is whether he knew of his coming via raven, and Mance informs him that they don't have trained ravens (there were no maesters in the Age of Heroes). The way the Free Folk live is as the FM lived back then: migrating, they only own what they can carry, sigils or words are "styles" or "a dog's head on a spear". There are some Magnars, some village settlements around a tree, some ringforts (Fist of the First Men) and a king whose castle is but a tent of white pelts with elk antlers on top of it. Heck, even Mance's cloak with its red silk of Asshai point to the past. His cloak does not indicate a Targ, but a far older branch with direct but fading ties to Asshai that this king of the past got from a grandmother. This king of the past also has ties to the FM because he wears raven wings, sings "songs" in the Old Tongue but also one about "The Dornishman's wife" and "his sharp steel that has a song of its own", abhors "lies". That king of the past was a skinchanger or greenseer. Hence he has no need of "trained ravens". There's also the tidbit about Qhorin's bones and helm and cloak being carried and given around: Rattleshirt has the bones, Ygritte wears Qhorin's hem and cloak. When Mance confronts Jon about lying about his mission (that it was just him and 5 men of the Shadow Tower on a ranging) at the Fist of the First Men, the following people are at the meeting: Mance, Ygritte, Rattleshirt, Harma Dogshead, Jarl, Sixskins and Qhorin (as bones, helm and cloak). That makes for 12 companions and 1. Hmmmmm. Yes, Rex Ward, aka King Ward. Good catch! Yes, Loras becomes a "ghost", a "spirit" or "spectre". LS is a "ghost" too, and a grey ghost at that, who has a Lem Lemoncloak, a One-Eyed Jack in green livery and a green dressed Singer (Tom Sevenstreams). She also has a "green knight" with Brienne (think Gawain and the Green Knight - the arthurian green knight gets conflated with Dr. Weird color combos almost from the start of Brienne's voyage) and a golden handed knight. I'm not sure whether Loras will become the new Beric, though it's possible. I wouldn't wish for it though. On the one hand Storm's End and the characters spiraling around it or being tied to it are stuck in the "Under Siege" moral dilemma (that I mentioned in the Stannis thread). Under Siege is a time travel story about what you are willing to do in order to prevent an apocalypse if you know/believe there will be one otherwise, and the preventing of it revolves around capturing a fortress that cannot be taken by force, only in making the occupiers surrender. In the grander scheme of things, it is about becoming the ruling power, which in aSoIaF is power over the Iron Throne - either by becoming the king, a king's queen, the regent or Hand over a king who's a minor. Once you combine it with Only Kids are Afraid of the Dark, this stealing of the power of the IT is the equivalent of Jasper killing to steal rubies, which is what Robert does when he kills Rhaegar with his hammer and Rhaegar's rubies fly off into the Ruby Ford. Note how George here connects "stealing rubies" to a fortress. A ford is a wordplay on a fort. The Riverlands and Riverrun are tied to another theme of a time travel story, called "Unsound Variations". It's mostly about a chess game that was lost in the past during a competition.It seemed at the time the player had a "winning position" but then made a dumb chess game move and lost the game. The other chess players used to harass "the loser" with "if you only had made this or that move we would have won". And during the story they get a chance to play the chess game, starting from the winning position, to try and win it. But with every try-out it becomes more and more clear their efforts are "unsound variations". The variations of strategy and moves are unsound, because what seemed to be a winning position, never really was one. That was the best position the "loser" could ever have reached, a check but never checkmate, and the best result that could have been gotten out of it was a "stale mate" or "draw" The "loser" has actually been more successful in life in comparison to the others, but that is only so, because he used a time machine to steal their ideas that would have led to a success in life (novel, invention or financial client). He offers the use of this time machine to the protagonist who realized that the winning position never truly was one. Not only does the protagonist forego the chance of a do-over over the chess game, he declines the time machine to rectify his failures and losses of his past life so far. He just lets it go and moves on in life from it all. The moral of Unsound Variations is that one must learn to recognize what you can realistically achieve, that there aren't really do-overs or second chances at winning the same game this time around. Take your loss, move on and live as a wiser person. And this is what Riverrun and the Riverlands do by extension: it takes and gives you grief, then it tempts you with the illusion of a winning position and a second chance at it, only for you to learn that both were an illusion. Robb's campaign is a sound example of that. Even readers get into decades of debates of "unsound variations" on what Robb should or should not have done. The fact is that he could never have won his war against Tywin Lannister, only limit the losses and play for stalemate. George does not just have Riverrun tied to illusionary do-overs and heartfelt failure, he also combined it with promises and breaking promises. The moment we see a character at having a seeming second chance to finally win something they deeply desire, we therefore know this will come crashing down on them. This do-over does not necessarily occur in the Riverlands, but if it stems from events in the Riverlands, then it will fail. Tywin Lannister's desire was to be Hand again. His war with Robb and the alliance with the Tyrells gave him the illusion he had won it again. But as soon as he is Hand, his children and grandchildren are the cause of taking it away again. Jaime refuses to leave the kingsguard but gifts his new house's VS sword to Brienne. Joffrey is unruly and looks down on his grandfather's feats. When he finally has a malleable king to be Hand over, Tyrion kills him, and Cersei burns his tower. Jaime attempted to capture Riverrun, ended up in chains, made promises to Cat, and ends up taking Riverrun only to meet the ghost of the woman he made promises to that he didn't or couldn't keep. It doesn't matter that he promised these things at swordpoint, because he did try to keep his promises initially. It doesn't matter his threats were just a tactic, or that he captured Riverrun bloodlessly. He must face the broken promises and falling for the illusion of a do-over which was a fake winning position to begin with. Some characters overlap the Under Siege theme as well as that of Unsound Variations. Loras is one of those (as is Cat and Renly and Tyrion) So, let's look at Loras and the Tyrells. As a Tyrell he has the green-gold. He's become a ghost: allegedly on the brink of death with a white cloak. He took the cloak because the love of his life died and to protect his sister (a maiden) whose life is in danger because of a trial. She's a queen because he aided in making his father's wish come true - have a daughter for a queen of westeros wed to a king of the IT, all to boys and men that legally are or were false kings. Loras basically aided in putting the maiden in that dangerous position. But he and Renly helped try to steal the rubies: his sister as queen to several kings. Robert who killed the man with the rubies: Renly aims to persuade Robert to put aside Cersei and wed Margaery Renly who was at the Ruby Ford and looked the part of the younger Robert Baratheon. In that sense, Renly becomes the do-over for a "better Robert", a second chance for the realm introduced in the Riverlands. Margaery was wed to Renly, but Renly never got to sit on the IT and is gay. Joffrey on the IT, but the Tyrells killed him before he could bed Margaery. He's not even really a Baratheon. And the Tyrells are aware of Stannis' accusations. Tommen on the IT. He's Margaery's do-over. She "beds" with him (though without consummation) and becomes his queen. But then she's accused of adultery and is to stand trial. Given the above, we can thus infer that Margaery seemingly has "won" (like Tywin believed it), only for it to quickly turn very very wrong. She will not be able to remain Tommen's queen and she won't get another do-over with any other man on the IT. How is Loras tied into this? He helped getting her there and took the white cloak to protect her. He's been prevented from doing that, which makes sense, because he helped put her in the sacrifical position. And Loras' desired do-overs are not "protecting his sister". Note how Margaery's trial already involves the RL, since the HS came from the Riverlands with a cart full of bones. His involvement means that the Tyrells will go through loss and grief over Margaery via this man. This is highlighted, because Mace also got to do a do-over with besieging Storm's End for a second time, against the loyal men of Stannis there. He abandoned that to come to Margaery's aid, and got his own true wish in becoming Hand in the process. Mace believes he is in a winning position. He'll most likely meet his end in or at Storm's End. The do-over was an illusion and being Hand under Kevan's regency the closest he could get to a "win". None of that really is Loras' primary wish though. When we think of Loras' backstory, there are two potential wishes as potential do-overs for him that are tied to the Riverlands. Like Renly was a younger do-over of Robert, Gendry can be considered to be a younger Renly do-over. Brienne identifies him as Renly initially. So, a potential scenario is Loras trying to make Gendry king of the IT, exposing Cersei's children. However, since Loras spoke with Brienne about the assassination of Renly, and she left for the RL after that to discover Gendry and exposing him as one of Robert's bastards in the mind of LS, I doubt Loras' involvement in any such attempt will go no further than making his peace with Brienne. The second wish for a do-over is tied to the Mountain and it is Loras' oldest wish. Before becoming Margaery's protector, before helping Renly form an alliance with the Tyrells to make him king, Loras wanted "revanche" against the Mountain (a chess term where the loser wants another go at it). Loras is introduced to us during the Hand's tourney. He won the joust against the Mountain with trickery, but then the Mountain aimed to combat him. The Hound saved Loras and Loras refrained from jousting against Sandor and gave Sandor the victory. This was the reason why Loras volunteered to be part of the men who were to arrest the Mountain: so he could duel the Mountain with a sword and prove his worth as a knight, for fame and glory. So, no, I do not believe Loras will be a new Beric to lead the BwB after LS. I think that he will reappear for Cersei's trial of combat, to be the HS's champion and duel the Mountain. A trial by combat against the Mountain is imo Loras' most desired do-over opportunity. And Loras will die in that combat.

I think you're seeing this too much as a "rational learning curve". The manner in which he doubles down with the war in the RL against Robb as well as the privy scene teach us two things: Tywin's life experience taught him that doubling down will make him "win" Tywin's instinctive response to threat even in his most vulnerable state is "fight" The latter response is beyond anyone's control. Blood pressure lowers. Heart rate lowers. People with such a response will project an image of strength and health even while very sick in a hospital. They're also the cool minds amidst a crisis situation while everybody else is flailing around in panic mode. It's instinct. They'll feel the fear and grief and pain, later, when they're safe. That is if they are normal empathic people. But Tywin is not a normal empathic person. He's basically someone with a chronic fight response because of his personality that goes way beyond instinct. The point is that neither Tywin's personality or his instinct can ever allow him to be vulnerable or beg at any given moment, no matter how he actually feels inside. Even if he rationally knows he's lost everything, even if he knows he should beg, his instinct will not allow it. That's what we see on the privy. He would rather die than beg.

Who handles ravens in the red keep? Pycelle.

The bard scene is both intruiging but I cannot place it well. Aside from the king, the courtiers most people look just very sad. The woman dancing (with bells in her hair) is sad. There's a boy on the steps, looking miserable. Not sure whether he's a fool. There's also some ominous man with a cowl behind the king in the shadows (a FM?). It's supposed to be a feast, but most participants appear sad. There are two guards with pointy helms with protection for the nose, one with a longsword, the other with a poleaxe. No maester with chain.

The subjects of the calendar january : Coldhands ... nice detail: black hands/skin no gloves. I like that he isn't depicted with blue glowing hands or eyes ('cause Coldhands doesn't have those!) February: Bloodraven in the tree with Leaf March: the Grey King with his mermaid wife April: Shiera Seastar taking a beauty bath in blood May: Lyanna balancing on ww tree root, Rhaegar looking on and blue roses June: A near naked Mad King on the IT (almost like a cradle) surrounded by hostile ghosts reaching for him July: (quote about Bael at Stark's court), but the bard seems just a southern bard (too rich in dress), and the king has a green robe with a crown with a green gem (doesn't match the stark crown) on a plain wooden throne. The wife standing beside him might be a Tully (blue red dress). Courtiers wear more byzantine like robes and the dancer is very light dressed (for summer). August: Dany with Drogon on Dragonstone in the grasslands. Focus is more on Drogon who stands like a statue from Dragonstone almost September: Sandor Clegane (really love this one) October: last hero vs ice-spider-Others November: Mel walking on the Wall with naked hands and ruby around her throat December: Mance (with red silk in cloak and raven plume strung in hair) with the giants on Mammoths centerfold: Rhaenys on Meraxes for a fun fly

Yes. My calendar arrived today. It's the last hero battling ice spiders with Others... we see the Other's arms, the spider legs, but no legs for the Others. They seem to grow out of the ice spiders

That man would never ever beg. He was sick with his bowels on the privy. There's no worse moment to feel little and shitty as when you have loose bowels and caught on the privy, and even in such a moment he's aggressive and arrogant.

@Sandy Clegg and if BtB chose the tree at the Nightfort for his second life, resulting with his face being a gate, you could think of him as a "hedge wizard" as well

Maybe that's because he was incapable of learning it?

But it's always been part of his strategy even before he was Lord of CR. Yes, the Reynes and Tarbecks were insolent, but he also seemed to have deliberately provoked them into rebelling, when he decided to put things back straight, while his father was alive, going even straight against his father's will or decisions. Diplomacy was never his thing.

Yes, and it puts him in a position where a peaceful resolution cannot be reached. If he'd had restricted his aggression in the riverlands to capturing castles and taking hostages, instead of "kill em all, rape em all, burn it all", he might have been much closer to come to some sort of deal with Robb even after Joff chopped Ned's head off. He's just committed to complete annihilation from the get go. He can't even see how it limits his options.

Nice interpretation. I like it!

I think that I hold Stannis partially responsible for Robb's impasse who to declare for after capturing RR. Robb's first inclination was Stannis. But Stannis hadn't declared himself whatsoever to anybody at all yet. Only Renly had. And Renly not being the next brother after Robert, it legally having to be Stannis, made him reticent in declaring for Renly. And his response makes sense not just from a legal point, but he does have an assumed acknowledged bastard brother of the similar age. Robb cannot risk setting a precedent for Northerners to just pick and choose which Stark brother they want as lord, from his very personal pov. He couldn't declare for Stannis, and he didn't want to declare for Renly without knowing what was up with Stannis. And then Greatjon solved the dilemma in the short term by saying "fuck the Iron Throne and who gets to sit their ass on that horrible thing. You fight for you own kingdom," which was after all what he was sort of doing already - fighting for the North and the Riverlands.

Agreed. Mace Tyrell would rather eat shit than being commanded by Stannis. And I do reckon that Renly's assessment of this would be correct, although Renly over generalized this. And I also agree Stannis made a huge mistake by remaining mum on Dragonstone during aGoT. Had he reached out starting a line of communication from Dragonstone to WF directly, that might have had some influence on either Ned or Robb afterwards.

I agree with this. When Tywin makes his comment about chopping the head of a snake to limit casualties, pretending that was what he was doing, then it's galling some people actually fall for his hipocritical argument. If there's one guy who loves and consistently uses excess violence towards innocents deliberately, it damn fucking Tywin. Stannis ends up using the same philosophy, but at least he limits his casualties to the minimum: Renly, Penrose. Everybody else he actually executed so far was for treason or breaking the law, or got killed in action of war. We may abhor the execution method and it being framed in a religious sacrifice, but if he had chopped their heads of, we'd shrug at it. We may abhor the use of magical assassin or even a human assassin under flag of truce, but it's far less bloody for the men who were levied as well as the smallfolk. Tarly alone has just way more blood on his hands after the murder of Renly: he has the levies of the Florents slaughtered. 2000 foot slaughtered because their lord went over to Stannis. I don't even agree with Renly's argument how Stannis wasn't liked and therefore co. Littlefinger doesn't like Stannis. That's actually a positive. Mace Tyrell didn't like Stannis. And I can only think of one reason really why Mace doesn't: because Stannis didn't surrender SE, not even after a year long siege. People make fun of Mance because of it, and he pettily resents the man who withstood him and hurt his vanity (not even pride). It's not as if Robert favored the Tyrells, despite his charm and warmth - Tyrells didn't have any representative in Robert's council. I notice that Stannis is somehow capable from acquiring men who are very loyal to him, more than Renly really: many of his king's men and the castellans on Dragonstone and SE. They've been through loss, defeat, shit, have potential hostages in the Stormlands, etc. It may not be Stark level inspiring, but he has a good core of men that are loyal to him, without having a rainbow or white cloak for it. The only ones who stayed loyal to Renly were the people in love with Renly: Loras and Brienne... Everybody else was more or less an opportunist, some more benign than others: going from glory and fame (with many of his KG), for a high position at court (excepting Garlan here). Being popular with opportunists isn't much of a metric for long term viability. i don't think Renly ever accounted for that. As for prolonging a war and biggest body count, there's only one man very high on the top of it all: Tywin Lannister.

You did investigate it ok and started the thread