The Wondering Wolf

The template for the Dance of the Dragons says that the fall of King's Landing took place before the Battle at the Red Fork, although F&B covers the latter first. 

47 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Thoughts

Do you have an idea about the number of characters whose status is unknown to us? Could be confusing if they are depicted alive when it's actually unclear.

On 5/20/2022 at 6:29 PM, Ran said:

Good call on these. What's the new site for the Italian wiki?

We'll have to figure out how to test if the others are gone or just moved.

I've stumbled upon a "new" Turkish Ice and Fire wiki on Fandom, so I'll leave a link here in case you want to change the interwiki link domain. Asoiaf Viki | Fandom

7 minutes ago, nik854866 said:

maybe  howland reed knows what really happened

As Howland is one of the two who "lived to ride away", he definitely knows what happened. Doesn't change the fact that Ned thinks the others died, though.

49 minutes ago, nik854866 said:

But that was a fever dream those shouldnt be taken literally

The lines The hairy bear cited don't come from the dream, but are Ned's thoughts when he speaks with Alyn about Jory's death. 

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

I think the change is justified, so if you have no adcional arguments to the ones you already gave and which i answered i see no reason to change it. I still believe this is the most likely option with the note making clear there is a option for it to be different. 

I'll leave it up to you how to handle it, I would just like to remind you that ignoring objections because you consider something likely is not in the spirit of a wiki community. I gave you some reasons which I consider weighty enough to make the case ambiguous and not as clear as you present it. But in the end it's not important enough for me to have lengthy discussions about Byron's potential daughter, so do as you like.

40 minutes ago, direpupy said:

But if you are so against it what would be your suggestion?

Just what it said before your last change.

7 hours ago, direpupy said:

I always read that as the squire writing to Byron's daughter to tell her how her father died, he would have no need to write his own daughter (if he had one) he would presumably be able to tell her in person when he got home. Also a squire of a nobleman of a powerfull house like swann is usually a young man from a other noble family, so apart from possibly being to young to have a child, he would also probably not marry until achieving his knighthood.

I don't agree with the latest change you made to the note. There's a chance that the squire couldn't get home immediately after the incident, so he wrote to his daughter and also told her about the recent events. In my opinion it's more likely he went back to Stonehelm to tell Lord Swann what happened (if the squire had written to Byron's relatives, one could expect that Lord Swann would have been the recipient instead of a daughter, anyway) and maybe he ended up in Borros's host. There can also be several reasons why the squire was already elder. I don't say it must have been the squire's daughter, but preferring one option over the other isn't the right choice for the wiki when it's ambiguous like that.

@direpupy

Ser Byron's squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it.

I'm no native speaker, but it seems to me said daughter was the squire's one and not Byron's. Or at least it's ambiguous.

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

I misread that as 9 AC, my bad. That does leave the earlier point made about the six high septons so its possible but i do still think it unlikely.

When there can be three Grand Maesters within two years, I'm sure there can be five High Septons within twelve years.

32 minutes ago, direpupy said:

My main Issue with this is that he would have been 14 (or even younger if he was chosen before 23 AC) when he became High Septon if they are the same person, and while it is possible that they wanted a younger man this would put him 2 years (or more) before a boy is considered to have become a adult man, which in universe you become at 16. As such his VERY young age would have been noteworthy, thus the lake of mention of this makes it unlikely they are the same person in my opinion.

Well, he wasn't born in 9 AC, but BC. Being 53 years in 43 AC, he would have been in his early thirties at the point of his election (assuming he was chosen around 21 or 22 AC).

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

The only issue I can possibly see in this scenario is that the High Septon from the Conquest died in 11 AC and Aegon I had six High Septons after him for the remainder of his reign. So that would mean that from 11 to at the latest 23 AC there were five different High Septons then Ceryse's uncle. Five consecutive High Septons in a period of maximum 12 years is rather a lot, especially since we don't hear about trouble or sickness in Oldtown at that time.

This point has came up before, but I guess at least some of them would have been rather old when they were elected. And looking at the list of popes, there were six popes between 523 and 537, so it's even a thing in real world. It would also help to explain why the Most Devout chose a guy in his early thierties: they finally wanted a High Septon who wouldn't die two or three years later.

Right now there are two pages for the High Septons during the reign of Aegon I and during the reigns of Aenys and Maegor. In my opinion, these are the same character. The first one is known to be the uncle of Ceryse Hightower, the second one is said to be "kin by marriage to the Hightowers" (Worldbook, Oldtown section). Now it's not impossible that these are two characters and both of them are related to the Hightowers, it's not very likely, though. But even if you consider them to be different characters, there should be a note stating the possibility they aren't.

44 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Jon being married to Mace's sister does point out to him being an important member of the Fossoway that's for sure.

Jon is not only listed as brother-in-law to Mace in the AGOT appendix, but also among the bannermen, so he's more than some random knight for sure. I would say it's pretty safe he's the head of the house. 

50 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I hope for Cider Hall that Leonette is a Red-Fossoway otherwise they are being upstaged by the new branch of the family. They have Franklyn Flowers who seems like an interesting minor character on their side of the family but he wants to kill them as a revenge for the rape of his mother. I wouldn't call that a win.

There is also Derrick "Bad Apple" Fossoway of the Band of Nine who doesn't sound like a sympathetic character

While Owen Fossoway was Lord of Cider Hall, we can't even be sure they are still a lordly house. The app states they are just knights. So it seems something happened to them, which might be related to Steffon and Derrick Fossoway.

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Speaking of Jon Fossoway, we still don't have a confirmation he is the head of the green Fossoway, right ?

Currently, the heads of both the red and green Fossoway are unknown which is strange for a relatively important Houses.

I seem to remember discussing this topic some years ago, and someone pointed out that they considered the appendix of AGOT, which includes Jon as one of the Tyrell bannermen, a big hint that he is the head. Same with Tanton because of the ASOS appendix. But no actual confirmation indeed.

1 hour ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

Note: I know there is no proof for this but in my headcanon, Jon and Jeyne Fossoway are twins grandchildren of Raymun Fossoway from The Hedge Knight.

Not sure about the twin part, but siblings would make sense for sure.

@Ran

We had similiar discussions before, but it seems the Force is strong with the ones who love creating articles, so I guess we need another clarification. There are pages for characters now that aren't canon, coming from rewritten chapters. In my opinion it would suffice to redirect these characters' names to 'Behind the scenes' sections on pages they are the most related to (Maenar Blackfyre to Maelys, Corzo zo Merreq to Band of Nine, and so on). Given GRRM's way of writing, the number of pages for such characters would only grow in time.

39 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

@The Wondering Wolf In AGoT, it's mentioned that Mace Tyrell has brothers, but on the wiki only his sisters are listed. Sheuld we write it off as a "firstbookism"?

Either that or Sansa just got it wrong. 

The page of Viserys's I son Daeron says, he joined Lord Ormund Hightower when Ormund left Oldtown at the beginning of the Dance. But I think the text makes it clear that Daeron stayed behind and only left the city after Ormund had been caught at the Honeywine.

It's said that the Arryns of Gulltown had split from their noble kin during the reign of Jaehaerys I, Isembard Arryn is categorised as noble, though.

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Are there any Hohenzollern’s who would do anything but laugh at the absurdity of such an offer?

Well, when you ask the current head of the family (some great-great-grandson of Wilhelm II) what he thinks about restoring the monarchy, he tells you 'There is no majority for that' instead of 'What the fuck did you smoke?'.

@Ran

F&B says:

Quote

Munkun refers to this period as the Rogare Ascendency, [...] Early in 135 AC, the Conclave sent forth its white ravens from Oldtown [...]

Spring is ever a season of hope, rebirth, and renewal, and the spring of 135 AC was no different. [...]

Across the narrow sea, Lys itself was prospering under the “velvet tyranny” of Lysandro Rogare, who had taken on himself the style of First Magister for Life. And when his brother Drazenko married Princess Aliandra Martell of Dorne, and was named by her Prince Consort and Lord of the Stepstones, the ascendancy of House Rogare reached its apex. [...]

During the first quarter of 135 AC, two momentous events were the occasion of great joy throughout the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.

To me this implies the wedding of Aliandra and Drazenko was one of the events in early 135 AC. But TROTD says:

Quote

And that news was the sudden and swift end of House Rogare, who had held such power in both Lys and the Seven Kingdoms. Moredo’s uncle Drazenko - who had wed Princess Aliandra of Dorne the previous year - was said to have choked to death on a fishbone, while Moredo’s father, Lysandro, drowned when his pleasure barge sank.

Placing it in 134 AC. Did you get any further confirmation by GRRM or was it your own conclusion?

On 11/10/2022 at 2:23 AM, King of the Wall said:

Do the Dunk and Egg stories contain information about the Dance of  Dragons? I recommended them to my girlfriend, but she would hate to get spoilers to House of the Dragon.

There is a line which tells you how Rhaenyra died 

3 hours ago, loveigniting09 said:

F&B, TWOIAF, and TPATQ doesn't have a day of death for Helaena nor does it state she died the same day as Daemon and Aemond. Neither does Rise of the Dragon which explicitly puts her death days after Daemon's death.

We have also discussed the matter recently over here. @Ran I was surprised about the line in TROTD that Rhaenyra disowned Mooton because she blamed him for Daemon's death. I think it was the first time that it's made clear that she knew about Daemon's death before she fled King's Landing. Was that a deliberate choice on your side?

17 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I wasn't aware there is uncertainty about the dates since there are no contradiction between the different books (TWOIAF, Fire & Blood and The Rise of the Dragon). What are the source that say the events at King's Landing (Helaena's death, riots, storming of the Dragonpit, Rhaenyra leaving the city) do not start on the same day as the Battle above the Gods Eye ?

I think it was an issue when F&B had not been published because some information did not make sense then. The problem is my conversation with Elio got lost because of the troubles they had with the site years ago, and I can not really remember the exact reasoning why it seems Helaena's death took place a bit earlier than the battle. I think it is because there is a period of two weeks between the Black Council meeting (Rhaenyra sending the letter to Maidenpool, Corlys's arrest, Maidenpool switching sides immediately) and the battle, but Rhaenyra only disowns the Mootons during the riots. It also seems unlikely to me that the "riotous mob" Corlys's men joined after their lords arrest would have been allowed to stir up trouble so long.

The Worldbook says:

On the twenty-second day of the fifth moon of the year 130 AC, Aemond One-eye and Daemon Targaryen entered their last battle. On that same day, chaos and death seized King’s Landing. Queen Rhaenyra had imprisoned Lord Corlys for helping his grandson, Ser Addam Velaryon, escape arrest when he was accused of treason. Some of the Sea Snake’s sworn swords joined the riotous mob in Cobbler’s Square, and some scaled the walls to try to free the Sea Snake, only to be hanged when they were caught. Queen Helaena then fell to her death, impaled on the spikes surrounding Maegor’s Holdfast—a suicide some said, and others a murder. And that night, the city burned as the Shepherd’s mob marched on the Dragonpit, attempting to slay all the dragons within.

It is not even clear which event the bolded text actually refers to, because it indicates all these events took place at a single day, which is clearly wrong. Corlys's men defected and joined the mob or climbed the walls to get home (not to free Corlys), Woodwright and True tried to free Corlys, but were executed on the morning of day M. I expect there must have been at least a few days between Corlys's arrest and the executions. In the evening of day M Helaena died. In the subsequent night rumours about the manner of her death were circulated in the city. The riots started in the evening of night N and lasted throughout the whole night. Order could be restored partially at day O, but in the evening the Storming of the Dragonpit took place.

@Thomaerys Velaryon I'm not sure that Helaena actually died at the 22th day of the fifth month. The temporal connection is only mentioned in the Worldbook (which is quite wrong on the sequence of events in this regard) and @Ran once said that he doesn't think the date for the uprising is accurate.

I think I have been the one who has brought up this topic before. Usually artists don't keep the rights for artwork that is commissioned by publishers, so they aren't able to give permission for use of their artwork in the first place. One would have to ask the publisher or GRRM himself, depending on who exactly holds the rights. Since Ran thought that neither of them would have any issues with the wiki using the artwork, he said that it's alright as it is, although I think the templates should be adjusted.