Why was the Great Council of 101 necessary to determine Jaehaerys' successor?

[Panos Targaryen]

Jaehaerys I Targaryen was king from 48 to 103. After his chosen heir died in 98, the Great Council had to decide in 101 who would succeed him. What I don't get is why did the council have to take place, since it occurred before the Old King's death? He could have just named another successor. In the wiki and TPTQ it says that the Great Council consisted of lords from all over Westeros. What was Jaehaerys' role in this? Why did a group of lords have to choose another successor for him, while he was still alive?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I wondered this, too. It could be just an extension of Jaehaerys as a diplomat, that he was open to others' opinions about the succession.

I'm also still curious as to why Rhaenys was passed over in the first place. Andal law doesn't preclude women from inheriting at all, just that a woman's brothers would come before her in succession. Meaning, assuming that Aemon was Jaehaerys's first-born son and Aemon died before Jaehaerys and had no sons, there's nothing that should have stood in the way of Rhaenys being next in line. Yet it passed to Baelon, and this was before the super-strict all-males-before-females rule kicked in.

Makes you wonder if there was some other, political reason to pass over Rhaenys, and her gender was just used as an excuse.

[Panos Targaryen]

I wondered this, too. It could be just an extension of Jaehaerys as a diplomat, that he was open to others' opinions about the succession.

I'm also still curious as to why Rhaenys was passed over in the first place. Andal law doesn't preclude women from inheriting at all, just that a woman's brothers would come before her in succession. Meaning, assuming that Aemon was Jaehaerys's first-born son and Aemon died before Jaehaerys and had no sons, there's nothing that should have stood in the way of Rhaenys being next in line. Yet it passed to Baelon, and this was before the super-strict all-males-before-females rule kicked in.

Makes you wonder if there was some other, political reason to pass over Rhaenys, and her gender was just used as an excuse.

Maybe officially the law allowed women to inherit normally, but the people of Westeros didn't like the idea of a queen regnant, being a woman, so tradition cancelled out the law. But Jaehaerys sounds like a good man, I don't think he would pass over an heir simply because she's a woman.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe officially the law allowed women to inherit normally, but the people of Westeros didn't like the idea of a queen regnant, being a woman, so tradition cancelled out the law. But Jaehaerys sounds like a good man, I don't think he would pass over an heir simply because she's a woman.

And yet that seems to be precisely what he did.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Maybe it also has something to do with the unknown reason why Maegor took over the IT after Aenys' death, even though Jaeherys was next in line.

The most likely reason for me is the fact that being the diplomat that he was and having learned his lessons from the Faith Militant rebellion, Jaeherys wanted to solidify the support for his heir by involving the Great Lords in the process of choosing him.

Or it was simply a case of there being too many Targs around.

Speaking of this, why did the Council that chose Aegon take place? Maybe the two are connected.

[Panos Targaryen]

And yet that seems to be precisely what he did.

Maybe he did it because Baelon looked like a more capable politician compared to Rhaenys, and would make a better ruler. His wife was his most trusted counselor, and he listened to her on many matters, so he didn't consider women incompetent.

[Panos Targaryen]

Maybe it also has something to do with the unknown reason why Maegor took over the IT after Aenys' death, even though Jaeherys was next in line.

The most likely reason for me is the fact that being the diplomat that he was and having learned his lessons from the Faith Militant rebellion, Jaeherys wanted to solidify the support for his heir by involving the Great Lords in the process of choosing him.

Or it was simply a case of there being too many Targs around.

Speaking of this, why did the Council that chose Aegon take place? Maybe the two are connected.

Which council? The one after Viserys' death?

[TheCrannogDweller]

Which council? The one after Viserys' death?

No, the council after Maekar's death - the one that skipped a few Targs and gave the crown to his 4th son - Aegon V, the Unlikely.

[Panos Targaryen]

No, the council after Maekar's death - the one that skipped a few Targs and gave the crown to his 4th son - Aegon V, the Unlikely.

Well, all of Maekar's sons had problems. Aemon didn't want the crown and was training at the Citadel, Aerion was exiled and half-mad, and Daeron had died of an STD. Which left only Egg and Aerion's son, who was a bastard.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I don't actually think know for sure that Aemon was older than Baelon. He is listed first on the wiki, but as far a literally source or date, I can't find it. Baelon was the chosen heir, so to me the question is why if Aemon was older was Baelon the successor. Was their bad blood over that which would cause his daughter to try to make a claim? I also can't find anything stating she was passed over because of gender. I think that is another assumption based on the Dance which took place a generation later, and again wasn't completely because Rhaenyra was a woman, but more because Alicent wanted Aegon to follow, and cited her lifestyle more than gender as reason. Also Rhaenyra was Viserys heir chosen, so I don't think a woman was banned from rule at this time.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I also think it is important to note that we don't know who Viserys mother was. Aemon was married to Jocelyn Baratheon, Rhaenys mother. They may have been trying to prevent that line from taking power. Personally I think this is why the north spoke for her, but as of now its crackpot due to just lack of info.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't actually think know for sure that Aemon was older than Baelon. He is listed first on the wiki, but as far a literally source or date, I can't find it. Baelon was the chosen heir, so to me the question is why if Aemon was older was Baelon the successor. Was their bad blood over that which would cause his daughter to try to make a claim? I also can't find anything stating she was passed over because of gender. I think that is another assumption based on the Dance which took place a generation later, and again wasn't completely because Rhaenyra was a woman, but more because Alicent wanted Aegon to follow, and cited her lifestyle more than gender as reason. Also Rhaenyra was Viserys heir chosen, so I don't think a woman was banned from rule at this time.

I think the idea is that Baelon only became the chosen heir after Aemon died. The fact that Baelon had to be chosen as the heir suggests that he probably wasn't the first-born son, because if he had been his succession would have been kind of a given.

That Rhaenys is called the Queen That Never Was strongly implies, in my mind, that under normal circumstances she would have been queen were it not for the council and Jaehaerys passing her over for Baelon. The fact that she was passed over at all also implies that she would have been ahead of the eventual victors in the normal succession; if she was behind them (i.e. the daughter of a younger son), she wouldn't have been passed over at all because she wouldn't have been at the head of the line to be passed over. That Jaehaerys chose Baelon over her seems to be/have been a big deal, which it wouldn't be if Baelon, a male, had been ahead of her in the succession anyway.

The Viserys/Rhaenyra parallel isn't quite the same, because it's a king who wanted his daughter to rule despite having other legitimate sons who, under Andal tradition/law, would have come before her. Whereas in Rhaenys's case, the throne would have passed to her under normal circumstances had she not been passed over by Jaehaerys and then the council.

[Panos Targaryen]

I think the idea is that Baelon only became the chosen heir after Aemon died. The fact that Baelon had to be chosen as the heir suggests that he probably wasn't the first-born son, because if he had been his succession would have been kind of a given.

That Rhaenys is called the Queen That Never Was strongly implies, in my mind, that under normal circumstances she would have been queen were it not for the council and Jaehaerys passing her over for Baelon. The fact that she was passed over at all also implies that she would have been ahead of the eventual victors in the normal succession; if she was behind them (i.e. the daughter of a younger son), she wouldn't have been passed over at all because she wouldn't have been at the head of the line to be passed over.

The Viserys/Rhaenyra parallel isn't quite the same, because it's a king who wanted his daughter to rule despite having other legitimate sons who, under Andal tradition/law, would have come before her. Whereas in Rhaenys's case, the throne would have passed to her under normal circumstances had she not been passed over by Jaehaerys and then the council.

You know, there's always the chance that the Great Council took all the decisions, because Jaehaerys was too old and senile by then. I mean, it was 2 years before his death, and he had been king for a looong time. Although in the wiki it says that he was dignified and wise even in his final years.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I think you're mixing two things here.

From the text, it seems obvious that Aemon was Jaeherys' firstborn son and heir. When he died, presumably in 92, the Old King himself chose Baelon over Rhaenys. To me, this suggests that Rhaenys' claim was as Aemon's firstborn child and that Baelon was probably her uncle - so Jaeherys chose his second son over his granddaughter.

The council of 101 happened after Baelon died. So in this case, it was probably a choice between a granddaughter and a grandson.

"Ironrod, the master of laws, cited the Great Council of 101 and the Old King’s choice of Baelon rather than Rhaenys in 92..."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You know, there's always the chance that the Great Council took all the decisions, because Jaehaerys was too old and senile by then. I mean, it was 2 years before his death, and he had been king for a looong time. Although in the wiki it says that he was dignified and wise even in his final years.

That might be the case for the Council in 101, but Jaehaerys is specifically said to have picked Baelon himself.

[Panos Targaryen]

That might be the case for the Council in 101, but Jaehaerys is specifically said to have picked Baelon himself.

Yeah, but that was at least 3 years before the Great Council.

[CosimaistheHottest]

If anything, they seemed to go through a lot of hoops to keep a woman from the throne? If Rhaenys had been given her chance, then the Dance would never had happened.

I also wonder why wasn't Visenya allowed to rule as Queen Regnant after Aegon I died. Instead it went to Aenys, then Maegor. She was just as much apart of the Conquest as he was. The Dragonstone couples seem to be pairs not just Lord and consort or Lady and consort.

[Maester Pedant]

I found that odd too. This is my take on this:

I think people tend to be too rigid on how they understand the whole business of Targaryen succession laws, and especially female succession. It is assumed that the ostensively foreign Targaryens used succession rules similar to the Andals, which is far from certain. It is true that they used a version of the Andal rules after the Dance of the Dragons, but we know next to nothing about what rules they actually used before, and there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting the rules were actually quite different.

Let’s look at actual instances of succession within the Targaryen dynasty up until the Dance. Firstly, the oddest thing about it is how “irregular” it is, if we use Andal laws as our standard. Aegon I was succeded by his eldest son, Aenys, but Aenys was instead succeded by his brother Maegor, who, lacking children, was succeded by his nephew, Jaehaerys (Aenys’ son), whose succession had to be settled by a Great Council. In four successions, only half were “regular”, Aegon by Aenys, Maegor by Jaehaerys, and only in the first case was a king followed by his eldest son. And all these seem to have been peaceful successions, unlike the horrible mess that happened after the death of Viserys I.

Secondly, it is quite interesting that there is such a thing as a Great Council to settle succession matters in the first place. We know of two of these, one to settle Jaehaerys I’s succession and another, several generations later, which selected Aegon V as king. It is possible that the first of these two Great Councils was the very first ever, but it is just as likely that these were part of an ancient tradition, a tradition of an elective or quasi-elective monarchy, and not exactly a purely hereditary one. It is possible that the head of House Targaryen was not chosen using the principles of agnatic or cognatic primogeniture (or even agnatic or cognatic seniority), but a more flexible set of rules, that allowed for a selection by some sort of electoral body from among eligible dynasts. Let’s not forget that the Targaryens were an ancient family from Valyria, which was not a monarchy, but a freehold, i.e., an oligarchic republic.

We know a few more things about Targaryen family politics: that they practiced endogamy, and even incestuous marriages, and that women played prominent roles. In fact, it is quite remarkable how powerful and important Targaryen women were. Both men and women could be dragonriders; both men and women were involved in leadership and military matters; both men and women were considered potential heirs and could transmit succession rights to their descendants. I think the importance of Targaryen women partly explains the tradition of incestuous marriage. Since they were dynasts, i.e., they could succeed and/or transmit their succession rights to their descendants, there was always the possibility of power slipping out of the family, of the head of the family, generations later, ending up being someone from a completely different paternal lineage. This is dangerous in a predominantly patrilineal culture (which Valyria seems to have been, just like the Andals). A way of dealing with this is marrying women within the family, to their brothers, uncles, cousins or nephews, thereby insuring that their descendants are Targaryens, without depriving them of their dynastic rights. It is clear that Aegon I’s sister-wives were much more than mere queens-consort, and that might also be the case with Jaehaerys I’s wife, Queen Alysanne. Their power is likely derived from them being members of House Targaryen, more than from their role as consorts. In this regard, it is quite telling that the only Targaryen woman that was actually chosen to be Queen and head of the family, Rhaenyra, was married off first to a man that was at least a Targaryen on his mother’s side, and then, after his death, to her Targaryen uncle. It is as if the family was trying to assure Rhaenyra’s heirs and successors would have as much Targaryen blood as possible. It is possible that a marriage within the family was a condition for her to be accepted as her father’s heir, even before the birth of her younger brothers. Laenor Velaryon was probably the closest they had to an available Targaryen man at the time.

That being said, my hypothesis is the following. The head of House Targaryen (and, after the Conquest, the King) was selected amongst eligible dynasts, most likely Targaryen dragonriders, by some sort of council, maybe composed of family members and important bannermen and retainers. The elective component of this succession tradition might not be always in action, though. There must have been occasions where the successor was obvious, either because there was only one eligible heir, or because one of the possible heirs was the obvious best choice, or the only one willing to take on the responsibility, or personally chosen by a living monarch powerful and/or persuasive enough to make his choice stick, etc. So we might have long periods where this elective council is not called into action, or only acts for the sake of form, a bit like the electors of the Holy Roman Empire. In any case, succession rights were transmitted by any dynast, creating the possibility of an endless number of potential heirs. Endogamy solves this problem. By marrying within the family, you can limit the number of potential heirs.

When Aegon became head of House Targaryen, his potential rivals, his sisters, became his wives, thereby effectively sharing power with him. When Aegon I died, the obvious successor would have been his eldest son, Aenys. He would have been all the more obvious considering that his only potential rival, his brother Maegor, wasn’t even a dragonrider at the time, having tamed his late father’s dragon Balerion. After Aenys’ death, however, the situation was different. His children would have been too young, and he had a formidable brother. This does not mean that Maegor was chosen by the council, however. He was the obvious successor, and he might not have needed any of that to ascend to the throne. It just shows that primogeniture was not the operating principle behind Targaryen succession, but it was rather some form of succession of the ablest. Maegor’s lack of children would have made Jaehaerys’ succession unproblematic, especially since one of his potential rivals, his sister Alysanne, was also his wife.

But Jaehaerys’ succession was surprisingly more difficult. Several interesting and reasonable hypotheses have been put forward to explain this, especially the position of Rhaenys Targaryen. All of them, however, rely on the principle of primogeniture to account for her actually being considered as a potential heir, and none satisfactorily explains the fact that her own children, Leanor and Laena Velaryon, were also considered. If, however, we discard primogeniture as the operating principle, there is no longer any need for any convoluted explanations. Simply put, Rhaenys was an eligible member of the family, most likely a granddaughter of Jaehaerys I, and a dragonrider who had shown a lot of potential. The fact that she was not the chosen one might be due to Andal influence. At this point, the Great Council was composed of the noble Houses of Westeros, most of them Andal, with a few First Men in the mix, all of them applying cognatic primogeniture as their default succession rule.

Viserys’ succession presented unforeseen problems and challenges. The fact that he did not have any surviving male children from his first wife could have lead him to settle the succession in his brother Daemon and is actually quite surprising he didn’t do just that. My hypothesis is that at this point the Andal rules of succession were beginning to be culturally absorbed by the Targaryens through contact with their Andal subjects. So for Viserys and his vassals it would have made sense to choose a daughter before a brother as the heir. The problem started when Viserys started having sons from his second wife AFTER the succession was apparently already settled. If primogeniture was the operating principle, it would make no difference whoever Viserys himself wanted to succeed him. The rule is bigger than the man, so therefore his eldest son, Aegon, would succeed, regardless of his father’s preference.

The simple fact that one could actually reasonably argue that Rhaenyra was Viserys’ lawful heir shows that the Andal rules of succession were not the main set of rules at stake. The Dance of the Dragons could therefore be understood as resulting from the conflict of two very different succession traditions: an elective or quasi-elective tradition where all dynasts were eligible (but at this stage already somewhat influenced by the Andal rules), and a purely hereditary tradition where sons come before daughters in all circumstances, regardless of age and ability.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I think the idea is that Baelon only became the chosen heir after Aemon died. The fact that Baelon had to be chosen as the heir suggests that he probably wasn't the first-born son, because if he had been his succession would have been kind of a given.

That Rhaenys is called the Queen That Never Was strongly implies, in my mind, that under normal circumstances she would have been queen were it not for the council and Jaehaerys passing her over for Baelon. The fact that she was passed over at all also implies that she would have been ahead of the eventual victors in the normal succession; if she was behind them (i.e. the daughter of a younger son), she wouldn't have been passed over at all because she wouldn't have been at the head of the line to be passed over. That Jaehaerys chose Baelon over her seems to be/have been a big deal, which it wouldn't be if Baelon, a male, had been ahead of her in the succession anyway.

The Viserys/Rhaenyra parallel isn't quite the same, because it's a king who wanted his daughter to rule despite having other legitimate sons who, under Andal tradition/law, would have come before her. Whereas in Rhaenys's case, the throne would have passed to her under normal circumstances had she not been passed over by Jaehaerys and then the council.

I see Baelon chosen in 92, so that must be when Aemon died? I am not convinced that gender was the main issue. Also I ask why a council wasn't called to name Baelon over Rhaenys, but call a council when he dies? Jaeherys made the decision the first time, or was a council then called as well? If the lords of the realm passed her over twice its a bit bigger deal than just the grandad the first time around. She has a strong relationship with her mothers house based on TPatQ. Maybe Baratheons are philanderous drunkards (with the exception of Stannis, who obviously wears his breeches a little to tight) that would bring chaos and extreme debt to the crown so they are trying really hard to keep them away so that all he'll doesn't break loose in Westeros.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I see Baelon chosen in 92, so that must be when Aemon died? I am not convinced that gender was the main issue. Also I ask why a council wasn't called to name Baelon over Rhaenys, but call a council when he dies? Jaeherys made the decision the first time, or was a council then called as well? If the lords of the realm passed her over twice its a bit bigger deal than just the grandad the first time around. She has a strong relationship with her mothers house based on TPatQ. Maybe Baratheons are philanderous drunkards (with the exception of Stannis, who obviously wears his breeches a little to tight) that would bring chaos and extreme debt to the crown so they are trying really hard to keep them away so that all he'll doesn't break loose in Westeros.

I'm not sure why Jaehaerys seems to have picked Baelon but a council had to pick Viserys. I think that's a mystery. All I'm saying is that everything we're told strongly suggests that Aemon was Jaehaerys's oldest son, and that Rhaenys, his daughter, would have come after him in succession, but that she was, for whatever reason (gender, politics, both), passed over for Baelon.

And I don't think we know enough about House Baratheon to blanket-label them as "philanderous [sic] drunkards."