Why was the Great Council of 101 necessary to determine Jaehaerys' successor?

[TheCrannogDweller]

I'm not sure why Jaehaerys seems to have picked Baelon but a council had to pick Viserys. I think that's a mystery. All I'm saying is that everything we're told strongly suggests that Aemon was Jaehaerys's oldest son, and that Rhaenys, his daughter, would have come after him in succession, but that she was, for whatever reason (gender, politics, both), passed over for Baelon.

Most likely because the choice between Baelon and Rhaenyra was second son vs granddaughter, while the Viserys vs Rhaenys situation was granddaughter of first son vs gradson of second son.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I wondered this, too. It could be just an extension of Jaehaerys as a diplomat, that he was open to others' opinions about the succession.

I'm also still curious as to why Rhaenys was passed over in the first place. Andal law doesn't preclude women from inheriting at all, just that a woman's brothers would come before her in succession. Meaning, assuming that Aemon was Jaehaerys's first-born son and Aemon died before Jaehaerys and had no sons, there's nothing that should have stood in the way of Rhaenys being next in line. Yet it passed to Baelon, and this was before the super-strict all-males-before-females rule kicked in.

Makes you wonder if there was some other, political reason to pass over Rhaenys, and her gender was just used as an excuse.

Jaehaerys might also have been too tired to deal with it by then. I think the objection was to a woman ruling, not necessarily inheriting.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Most likely because the choice between Baelon and Rhaenyra was second son vs granddaughter, while the Viserys vs Rhaenys situation was granddaughter of first son vs gradson of second son.

Well yeah, that's just stating facts. But it still doesn't explain the why of it. You'd think it would have passed right to Viserys from Baelon, if Viserys was Baelon's son.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Well, all of Maekar's sons had problems. Aemon didn't want the crown and was training at the Citadel, Aerion was exiled and half-mad, and Daeron had died of an STD. Which left only Egg and Aerion's son, who was a bastard.

Daeron and Aerion were already dead. The Great Council's stamp of legitimacy allowed Egg to ascend to the IT ahead of Daeron's feeble-minded daughter, Aerion's son, and Maester Aemon, who didn't want it anyway. I would really, really like to know what happened to Aerion Jr.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Baratheons are philanderous drunkards (with the exception of Stannis, who obviously wears his breeches a little to tight) that would bring chaos and extreme debt to the crown so they are trying really hard to keep them away so that all he'll doesn't break loose in Westeros.

Stab at Roberts reign, not a blanket. I need to work on my sarcasm.

[BranBrokeLegs]

I found that odd too. This is my take on this:

I think people tend to be too rigid on how they understand the whole business of Targaryen succession laws, and especially female succession. It is assumed that the ostensively foreign Targaryens used succession rules similar to the Andals, which is far from certain. It is true that they used a version of the Andal rules after the Dance of the Dragons, but we know next to nothing about what rules they actually used before, and there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting the rules were actually quite different.

<snip>

Good post. If this isn't the reason, then I think GRRM should retcon it to be the reason.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Well yeah, that's just stating facts. But it still doesn't explain the why of it. You'd think it would have passed right to Viserys from Baelon, if Viserys was Baelon's son.

Because Baelon wasn't the king. The issue was to determine the heir of Jaeherys.

So, who would it be? The granddaughter from the primary branch? Or the grandson from the secondary branch?

However, if we take the reasons for the Dance into account, it may make more sense for all of them to be children of Aemon. In this case, Rhaenyra would still be the oldest child and get passed over twice for her two little brothers.

Edit: My point is, if we assume that Aemon and Baelon were Jaeherys' sons, and that a daughter succeeds her father, then Aemon's death shouldn't matter to Rhaenys' claim to her grandfather's crown. But it did.

So by the same logic, Baelon's death would affect his son's claim.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

It might be a mistake to attempt to analyze succession rules at all. The history of the Targs from the death of Aegon I to the end of the Dance sounds like the actions of a large family full of ambitious types who take advantage of the difference between Valyrian and Andal succession laws to maneuver for their own individual or factional advantage. The rules themselves are in flux, and lots of Targs want to keep it that way. The more ambiguous the rules are, the more people who have a shot at power. Any potential heir but the eldest would take advantage of any argument from either tradition to turn the succession into a jump ball situation.

Jaehaerys' motive for calling a Great Council would be to prevent a civil war upon his death by lining up support for whoever won the political infighting battle - in this case, Viserys.

[Maester Pedant]

It might be a mistake to attempt to analyze succession rules at all. The history of the Targs from the death of Aegon I to the end of the Dance sounds like the actions of a large family full of ambitious types who take advantage of the difference between Valyrian and Andal succession laws to maneuver for their own individual or factional advantage. The rules themselves are in flux, and lots of Targs want to keep it that way. The more ambiguous the rules are, the more people who have a shot at power. Any potential heir but the eldest would take advantage of any argument from either tradition to turn the succession into a jump ball situation.

Jaehaerys' motive for calling a Great Council would be to prevent a civil war upon his death by lining up support for whoever won the political infighting battle - in this case, Viserys.

Indeed. Succession rules change over time. They tend to be less rigid than most people think. Better yet: succession rules became more rigid as the role of the monarch became more strongly enshrined in tradition and the stronger other institutions became. Nowadays, in European monarchies, succession is a matter of law, but, on the other hand, monarchs are little more than symbols. I think it's interesting that Targaryen succession rules changed (or were adjusted) at the same time they started losing the main source of their power, the dragons.

[Maia]

Andal and First men laws allow daughters to inherit, but didn't GRRM say that there never was a Storm Queen or a Queen of Winter? So, it seems to me that excuses were found in both traditions to exclude women from the throne.

It also occurs to me that septon Barth served Jahaerys, who ascended to the throne in 48, for 40 years and was likely dead in 92. We don't know anything about Alysanne's age at the time of her death, but she looks younger on her portrait than Jahaerys does on his. So, maybe both Barth and Alysanne were already dead and Jahaerys had fallen under the influence of Andal traditionalists when Rhaenys was first passed over. Otto Hightower may have already been a member of the Small Council, if not the Hand.

I also find it curious that supposedly lords spoke against Rhaenys 20:1 during the Great Council, but the Stormlands and the North seemed to have been on her side? Ditto Rhaenyra supposedly admitting to Alicent that a new Great Council would decide for Aegon... Despite so many lords being prepared to _fight_ for her cause. IMHO, Gyldayn had a clear agenda when making these rather contradictory statements.

[Maester Pedant]

I also find it curious that supposedly lords spoke against Rhaenys 20:1 during the Great Council, but the Stormlands and the North seemed to have been on her side? Ditto Rhaenyra supposedly admitting to Alicent that a new Great Council would decide for Aegon... Despite so many lords being prepared to _fight_ for her cause. IMHO, Gyldayn had a clear agenda when making these rather contradictory statements.

I agree. It is possible that Gyldayn (or his sources) were biased in favour of Aegon II. That's not that surprising, considering that the Hightowers are Lords of Old Town, which is the Citadel's location. Showing that most Houses would favour Aegon over Rhaenyra is a way of legitimizing Aegon's usurpation and the Hightowers actions during the Dance.

[Panos Targaryen]

The Rogue Prince spoilers

I know this post hasn't been answered to for a long time, but now that The Rogue Prince has come out, it appears my theory has been confirmed. According to the Rogue Prince, by the end of his reign Jaeherys I was broken by the death of Septon Barth and Alysanne, he was "merely a shadow of the man he once was", and was sick and depressed for most of the time. He was also beginning to go senile, mistaking Alicent for one of his daughters.

[Rhaegar Targaryen II]

i find very strange how the lords have such issue with women ruling them. I mean when westeros was finally united it was 2 women that actually did most of the governing of the realm so why was it such an issue in later years.