Nictarion Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Was it worth an entire city being virtually wiped out so she could have her bloodlust moment with the masters?Absolutely! It was a great read, and one of the best chapters of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra of KotOR Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I doubt me posting any of this will convince anyone who hates Dany but I have to clear two things up.1: Dany has never broken a agreement in her eyes and in the eyes of her supporters. As someone else has already mentioned she paid for the unsulied before she started killing people. Was it honorable? No not really, but she didn't break her word. In fact even when she should have broken her word by attacking the Yellow City (whatever its name is) people she didn't. Dany would not brake her word and choose to wait till they attack.2: Maybe I am wrong but I never thought the envoys being killed had anything to do with Asper. They were sent to Manterys which we are told is a city of monsters. It is on the demon road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Voldemort's Toes Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Absolutely! It was a great read, and one of the best chapters of the series.Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I am not one to get bent out shape because Dany lied to the Good Masters. There are a hell of lot worse things. Her lying to them and then screwing them over didn't really bother me that much, it was her subsequent actions in Astapor that did. But, some these arguments seem to stretch credulity. 1: Dany has never broken a agreement in her eyes and in the eyes of her supporters. Well, ok, since that is how Dany views it, then that must be reality. But, really, objectively speaking, I think its pretty clear that Dany screwed the slave masters in Astapor. As someone else has already mentioned she paid for the unsulied before she started killing people. Look if Dany planned on killing the masters once she got the Unsullied, then I think its pretty clear she never intended to transer title to Drogon to the good masters. Its nothing but simple theft by trick. I find this line of reasoning to be weak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I doubt me posting any of this will convince anyone who hates Dany but I have to clear two things up.1: Dany has never broken a agreement in her eyes and in the eyes of her supporters. As someone else has already mentioned she paid for the unsulied before she started killing people. Was it honorable? No not really, but she didn't break her word. In fact even when she should have broken her word by attacking the Yellow City (whatever its name is) people she didn't. Dany would not brake her word and choose to wait till they attack.2: Maybe I am wrong but I never thought the envoys being killed had anything to do with Asper. They were sent to Manterys which we are told is a city of monsters. It is on the demon road. 1. Oh well if Dany doesn't think she's done anything wrong, then she must not have. And technically she did break her word, by taking back the payment, the dragon, that should have from that point on belonged to the Masters. You probably think that if Gregor doesn't think he's done anything wrong, he hasn't. Right? 2. You don't think that Dany's stunt in Astapor might have increased hostility toward her in other parts of the region? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Absolutely! It was a great read, and one of the best chapters of the series. Edited because I included something I should not have. My apologies. ETA: Do you people not comprehend that the poor saps that got the worst of it when Astapor was destroyed were the freed people Dany allegedly emancipated? So Dany's awesome for freeing people, but if her reckless stupidity means that they all end up horrifically dead, it's cool because you got to read the "Dracarys" scene? Even Dany had the limp decency to feel vaguely bad when she heard what happened to Astapor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Eh, some cities need to be wiped off. If someone could dispose of New Delhi without harming the monuments, they have my blessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Voldemort's Toes Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 So an entire city getting wiped off the map is OK with you so long as your Neanderthal sense of bloodlust is sated? Sick.Wow that seems like an unnecessary personal attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Eh, some cities need to be wiped off. If someone could dispose of New Delhi without harming the monuments, they have my blessing. And who gets to make that judgment call? Eh? Wow that seems like an unnecessary personal attack. Perhaps it is, and I'm sorry. My sentiment stands, though. I do find it sick. And it's also, by the way, diametrically opposed to what Dany's alleged mission in Slaver's Bay is supposed to be about: freeing people as a way to improve their lives. But apparently it's about causing wanton, meaningless destruction, and to hell with whoever has the bad luck to get caught up in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Eh, some cities need to be wiped off. If someone could dispose of New Delhi without harming the monuments, they have my blessing. Well, I guess the people of Westros and Essos should be happy that Dany only has Dragons and not a fleet of B1 bombers with Neutron Bombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Love me some Dany. Great character. If I had to choose someone to serve, after Robb Stark died, I would go with Danaerys. She's not the smartest whip or very politically or strategically minded, but I think she means well. I'm rooting for her. Yeah, Astapor didn't turn out the way anyone would have liked. Sometimes you try and do a good thing, or do what you have to, and things turn to poo anyways. Don't stop trying, Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra of KotOR Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I didn't say what she did wasn't a trick or that the good(wise?great?can't remember)masters weren't screwed.God damn I am slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 And who gets to make that judgment call? Eh? Bless. No one made the call to wipe out Astapor. She left a reasonably capable council in charge which couldn't rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Bless. No one made the call to wipe out Astapor. She left a reasonably capable council in charge which couldn't rule. Oxymoron, no? Do you not agree that what ultimately happened to Astapor is her responsibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Oxymoron, no? Do you not agree that what ultimately happened to Astapor is her responsibility? Not really? She isn't responsible for Cleon going ax-crazy anymore than the UK is responsible for the 1971 Indo-Pak war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Bless. No one made the call to wipe out Astapor. She left a reasonably capable council in charge which couldn't rule. So its the council's fault that things went to hell in Astapor? Even Dany seems to know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Roast Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I find honor to be an odd frame to use for judgment of any character in ASoIaF. I think GRRM makes it pretty clear that "honor" shifts with the situation—and that most of the time any notions of honor are shit. I think Jamie put it well: "So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.” And all of Westeros assumes that he has shit for honor and so did most readers—at least until he became a POV. Even then, Jamie’s "honor" is still an open question for many. Is there a standard for “honor”? A clear measurement based on the world the characters live in and not on the frames that each reader brings to the tale? I think not. I cannot think of a single character who has been consistently "honorable" by modern or medieval standards—or even by the standards of their culture in the world that GRRM has created.. If we grade on a curve of all the characters, then Daenerys strikes me as more honorable than some and less than other, but nowhere near an extreme in either direction. Like most important characters she makes lose/lose choices based on her beliefs—and often has chosen a path that did her some harm because of her understanding of “honor” (you could make the same case for any character). Dany’s sense of honor is informed by the myths of Westeros she learned from her brother and story books crossed with a Dothraki understanding and her own experiences. It is a very different code of honor than Ned’s code, but both characters tried to live by their understanding of honor. Sometime this means making choices between two bad options. Take the honorable Knight’s vow to “defend the weak”. When she trades with the slavers in Astropor, that sense of honor is in direct conflict with the notion that “honorable” folks do not lie. Dany makes a choice that freeing the slaves is the greater virtue, but she does lie to the slavers. As I find the slavers to be without any redeeming qualities whatsoever, I thought it was a wise choice and an honorable one. Others will, of course, disagree. Throughout the series, I think GRRM is making a point about the trouble that rigid beliefs in "honor" can cause. Honor is as useful as nipples on a breastplate in the world he created. It is completely subjective: for the character, for the culture they live in, for the reader and the biases they bring to their reading of the tale. Teenager Dany has made a lot of mistakes (but no more than the other teenagers we follow). She has wild and unpredictable weapons (dragons) that she does not really control. She will make more mistakes. She might turn out to be a hero or a villain, but in either case her belief in her sense of “honor” will guide her. So, she is “honorable”. But that tells us nothing, because in the world that GRRM created: honor matters less than shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Not really? She isn't responsible for Cleon going ax-crazy anymore than the UK is responsible for the 1971 Indo-Pak war. But she left the city in a state of instability. It was her set-up that left the city vulnerable to a Cleon type taking over. And I actually would hold ex-colonial powers responsible for a lot of the instability in their old colonies. I just can't absolve her of responsibility for that. What happened was a direct result of the city being left, by her, in a specific condition. Of course she bears responsibility for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I do think she should have left better protection but I am still going to place most of th responsibilty on the greedy, self-serving butcher who took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I do think she should have left better protection but I am still going to place most of th responsibilty on the greedy, self-serving butcher who took over. Yeah, like, if you go into some random city with an army, kill all its leaders, trash the place like Charlie Sheen in a hotel room, and then leave it with no army or no police forces, why would it be surprising that things would go to hell afterward if you didn't stay there to restore order? Why would it be surprising that some thug might take power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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