Pick your castle

[unSonofStannis]

Well we hear Aegon and JonCon took Storm's End though like when Winterfell fell to Theon it sounded like he had a sneaky plan.

Could very well see Casterly Rock fall, but not sure who is situtated to do it...I mean, Aegon is in the Stormlands, the Vale is very far away if they even intend to get in on this, Stoneheart could never take it with the ragtag she has (Unless it is some kind of Jaime trojan horse thing), Dorne again is too far away, Euron is in the Reach, Stannis is at Winterfell. Nobody really close enough with the men to get it done atm.

Edmure and the Blackfish could do it if they could round up enough revenge seeking rivermen and northmen from the war.

[MyLittleFinger]

Edmure and the Blackfish could do it if they could round up enough revenge seeking rivermen and northmen from the war.

Edmure is in a dungeon. As for the Blackfish, who could he rally? The Frey's and Daven's host mopped up what was left of the Riverlords forces, they're scattered and broken. The North is focused on their own problems. The Riverlords were never powerful enough on their own to match the Westerlands even at their peak let alone at their lowest point ever.

[unSonofStannis]

Edmure is in a dungeon. As for the Blackfish, who could he rally? The Frey's and Daven's host mopped up what was left of the Riverlords forces, they're scattered and broken. The North is focused on their own problems. The Riverlords were never powerful enough on their own to match the Westerlands even at their peak let alone at their lowest point ever.

Edmures not in a dungeon hes in a column heading for a life of captivity at CR, but Blackfish might be on his way to rescue him plus the Westerlands is pretty depleted and would never expect an attack on CR at this point and I didnt mean northmen from the north I meant northmen who are wondering the Riverlands, the broken men and the ones Bolton and Robb left behind.

[saltovergray]

Although it is cursed and in disarray, I do have a strange fondness for Harrenhal.

I'd fail to hold it, though, but at least I'd die happy!

[unSonofStannis]

Although it is cursed and in disarray, I do have a strange fondness for Harrenhal.

I'd fail to hold it, though, but at least I'd die happy!

I have the same feeling for Harrenhal, its alluring for some reason.

[Corvo Attano]

Regular castles are all very well and good, but what about one which is inaccessible, nobody knows where it is, its completely self-sufficient, and it moves? Seems like a pretty good plan to me..

[unSonofStannis]

Regular castles are all very well and good, but what about one which is inaccessible, nobody knows where it is, its completely self-sufficient, and it moves? Seems like a pretty good plan to me..

It might be an exaggeration.

[Lion of the West]

Regular castles are all very well and good, but what about one which is inaccessible, nobody knows where it is, its completely self-sufficient, and it moves? Seems like a pretty good plan to me..

And you get to be eaten alive by mosquitos during a summer that lasts for years. Fun stuff.

[House Morrissey]

Casterly Rock because who needs food stores when I have all that gooooooooooooold

[Ziriath]

Regular castles are all very well and good, but what about one which is inaccessible, nobody knows where it is, its completely self-sufficient, and it moves? Seems like a pretty good plan to me..

Well, if you are ok with eating frogs, then why not? :)

[House Lemongrab]

Hellholt.

I'd sit in my castle eating my stores of spicey food and wine while the enemy burned and starved in the hot, Dornish desert whilst being attacked by scorpions and vipers.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Well we hear Aegon and JonCon took Storm's End though like when Winterfell fell to Theon it sounded like he had a sneaky plan.

Could very well see Casterly Rock fall, but not sure who is situtated to do it...I mean, Aegon is in the Stormlands, the Vale is very far away if they even intend to get in on this, Stoneheart could never take it with the ragtag she has (Unless it is some kind of Jaime trojan horse thing), Dorne again is too far away, Euron is in the Reach, Stannis is at Winterfell. Nobody really close enough with the men to get it done atm.

Please, use spoiler tags when referencing the WoW gift chapters. :)

As far as Casterly Rock goes - you're forgetting that Tyrion is about to ingratiate himself with Daenerys. And if there is someone with the inside knowledge and cunning to take the Rock, that's the Imp.

The Riverlords were never powerful enough on their own to match the Westerlands even at their peak let alone at their lowest point ever.

That's not entirely true. In a one-on-one war (which almost never happens) the Riverlands could match the Westerlands - it all depends on who leads them, where they fight and so on. Numbers aren't everything.

Regular castles are all very well and good, but what about one which is inaccessible, nobody knows where it is, its completely self-sufficient, and it moves? Seems like a pretty good plan to me..

I think you're taking the Greywater Watch hype too literally. I don't think it's a real castle - the terrain doesn't seem suitable for that, nor for a regular type of dwelling. It's most likely just Howland Reed's house - a larger-than-regular crannog.

Casterly Rock because who needs food stores when I have all that gooooooooooooold

Which you can eat and then produce the world-famous golden feces. :D

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Storm's End.

[Khal Shaggydog]

I agree that all this talk of Greywater Watch being the best place to hole up is a bit of a stretch. We've never seen it, we don't know what it is, and it could be the reason why no one has ever tried to find it/attack it/besiege it is because no one ever gave a crap about dong that. You would surely lose a lot of lives going through the bogs, poison arrows and muck, etc etc, but other than marching through the Neck to attack the North, no one has ever aimed to take Greywater. I would think that with a siege force strong enough, and over the OP's course of 2 years, Greywater Watch could be taken by someone like Stannis, who will single mindedly wade towards his goal, no matter how relatively low the cost of taking the "keep" is.

But of the REAL castles, we've got a few standouts, but as another poster said, we have to take into account when this siege is starting, and what kind of weather conditions we are expecting.

Water supply and food is key, beyond the basic security prerequisite. I am not sure how up on desalinization Westeros is, but Storm's End has the best walls, and has an unending water supply that is dangerous to approach from sea. Id put it above Riverrun in that respect, although if they haven't figured out how to convert the water then Riverrun might hold an advantage in the drinking water supply. Winterfell and the Dreadfort get nods for their internal heat supplies if we are dealing with a winter situation, but that may not even be an issue if the siege doesn't cover deep winter. Winterfell gets a good grade for sustaining food supply with the glass gardens, but we don't know much about the Dreadfort to know if they just store food, or have a way of producing new nutrition during a siege. We do know, however, that the Dreadfort survived a siege of 2 years, so theres that...

One major factor is the makeup of the small folk that will be sustaining the castle. We know the people of Storms End lasted a year under Stannis, but you have to believe their morale was wildly boosted by their actual liege lord, Robert, fighting a huge rebellion. I wouldn't think the small folk of Casterly Rock would be so keen on extreme sacrifice for the Lannisters, knowing just how Tywin will likely treat his small folk if their needs conflict with his. In that respect, the castles of the North have a huge advantage, in that they are a harder and grittier people, who are used to sacrifice in the face of nature and "outsiders".

What do we know of the Last Hearth? I like the fact that the lands around that part of the north will be very dangerous for a besieging army.

[Captain of the Guard]

I agree that all this talk of Greywater Watch being the best place to hole up is a bit of a stretch. We've never seen it, we don't know what it is, and it could be the reason why no one has ever tried to find it/attack it/besiege it is because no one ever gave a crap about dong that. You would surely lose a lot of lives going through the bogs, poison arrows and muck, etc etc, but other than marching through the Neck to attack the North, no one has ever aimed to take Greywater. I would think that with a siege force strong enough, and over the OP's course of 2 years, Greywater Watch could be taken by someone like Stannis, who will single mindedly wade towards his goal, no matter how relatively low the cost of taking the "keep" is.

But of the REAL castles, we've got a few standouts, but as another poster said, we have to take into account when this siege is starting, and what kind of weather conditions we are expecting.

Water supply and food is key, beyond the basic security prerequisite. I am not sure how up on desalinization Westeros is, but Storm's End has the best walls, and has an unending water supply that is dangerous to approach from sea. Id put it above Riverrun in that respect, although if they haven't figured out how to convert the water then Riverrun might hold an advantage in the drinking water supply. Winterfell and the Dreadfort get nods for their internal heat supplies if we are dealing with a winter situation, but that may not even be an issue if the siege doesn't cover deep winter. Winterfell gets a good grade for sustaining food supply with the glass gardens, but we don't know much about the Dreadfort to know if they just store food, or have a way of producing new nutrition during a siege. We do know, however, that the Dreadfort survived a siege of 2 years, so theres that...

One major factor is the makeup of the small folk that will be sustaining the castle. We know the people of Storms End lasted a year under Stannis, but you have to believe their morale was wildly boosted by their actual liege lord, Robert, fighting a huge rebellion. I wouldn't think the small folk of Casterly Rock would be so keen on extreme sacrifice for the Lannisters, knowing just how Tywin will likely treat his small folk if their needs conflict with his. In that respect, the castles of the North have a huge advantage, in that they are a harder and grittier people, who are used to sacrifice in the face of nature and "outsiders".

What do we know of the Last Hearth? I like the fact that the lands around that part of the north will be very dangerous for a besieging army.

The small folk don't matter in this. You just have a garrison of men at arms, enough to defend the castle. That's all you need to feed.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I agree that all this talk of Greywater Watch being the best place to hole up is a bit of a stretch. We've never seen it, we don't know what it is, and it could be the reason why no one has ever tried to find it/attack it/besiege it is because no one ever gave a crap about dong that. You would surely lose a lot of lives going through the bogs, poison arrows and muck, etc etc, but other than marching through the Neck to attack the North, no one has ever aimed to take Greywater.

Well, not in recent memory - but the Neck used to be a separate kingdom, and a Stark king of old did conquer it.

[Waters Gate]

I stick to the Eyrie, but maybe i should go deeper into why and under what circumstances the Eyrie is the best. My preference for the Eyrie comes from the fact that it's probably the most impossible castle to storm, whereas all other castle's seem easier to storm. Sure, i think youre losses at storming Storm's end would be hughe, but what if it can be done like that?

It's really a matter then of the size of the besieging force. Say that you have 10K men to defend yourself, and the enemy has about 30.000, then youre unlikely to be defeated by assualt at places like Storms end or Rivverrun. But i don't think you can hold up more than 20.000 men in such castle's, and thats a lot mouths to feed too when besieged. It becomes a whole different matter when the enemy has like 300.000 infantry at his disposal. With such a force, you can practicly storm anything and even with hughe losses take it.

I don't see most of the castle's mentioning here standing up against an assault of a force of 300.000 with the maybe 20.000 men you can defend a castle like that. Like this, i see storms end, Winterfel, Casterly rock, rivverrun all fall.

And besides that, i find the argument of inner supply, that is that some castle's can produce food and such, rather overblown. That is, how many men do you think can be provided for with food production inside the walls of a castle? I think you can provide for a few 100 maybe, but 20.000 men? The more men you hole up in castle's like Winterfell or Storms end, the faster you will deplete youre food supply, and the more risk for other problems like disease during a siege.

Thats where i think the Eyrie makes a difference. It's unassaultable. Whereass i doubt that places like Storms end even with 20.0000 defenders would stand against an assault by a force numbering a few hundredthousands, im pretty sure you can hold the Eyrie with a 10th of that force from being assaulted. And thats just so much less men to supply, you will go 10 times longer with youre supply of food at the Eyrie if you can hold it with 10 times lesser defenders, thats a hughe difference in supply and the Eyrie is a large castle compared to the few defenders it needs so storage place for food will be ample there for the few numbers you need to support. It's just far more easy to locally produce some food/get some drinking water for such a smaller force than a large force.

As an object to assault, the eyrie is a 100 times worse than bloody Thermopylia, you have a miles long road that only allows 1 man to pass at a time, and over that whole lengt the assaulting foce could be peppered by arrows and stones at various places whereas a few spearmen can block the assaulting force from going up. I'm not even sure if i need 2000 to hold the Eyrie, the Spartans didn't need so many at thermopylia and there was far more combat width there, basicly Thermopyilia was harder to hold than the Eyrie would be and the persians came simmilary in hughe force.

And thats where the difference is made. One has to consider the opposing force, but as you add numbers i think you wil be adding reason to pick the Eyrie above all else. Putting it differently, the Eyrie has the best force multiplyer to offer for defenders, and an extreme force multiplyer at that that might as well hold of millions of men if such a vast force could even maneuver trough the vale valley's.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I stick to the Eyrie, but maybe i should go deeper into why and under what circumstances the Eyrie is the best. My preference for the Eyrie comes from the fact that it's probably the most impossible castle to storm, whereas all other castle's seem easier to storm. Sure, i think youre losses at storming Storm's end would be hughe, but what if it can be done like that?

It's really a matter then of the size of the besieging force. Say that you have 10K men to defend yourself, and the enemy has about 30.000, then youre unlikely to be defeated by assualt at places like Storms end or Rivverrun. But i don't think you can hold up more than 20.000 men in such castle's, and thats a lot mouths to feed too when besieged. It becomes a whole different matter when the enemy has like 300.000 infantry at his disposal. With such a force, you can practicly storm anything and even with hughe losses take it.

I don't see most of the castle's mentioning here standing up against an assault of a force of 300.000 with the maybe 20.000 men you can defend a castle like that. Like this, i see storms end, Winterfel, Casterly rock, rivverrun all fall.

And besides that, i find the argument of inner supply, that is that some castle's can produce food and such, rather overblown. That is, how many men do you think can be provided for with food production inside the walls of a castle? I think you can provide for a few 100 maybe, but 20.000 men? The more men you hole up in castle's like Winterfell or Storms end, the faster you will deplete youre food supply, and the more risk for other problems like disease during a siege.

Thats where i think the Eyrie makes a difference. It's unassaultable. Whereass i doubt that places like Storms end even with 20.0000 defenders would stand against an assault by a force numbering a few hundredthousands, im pretty sure you can hold the Eyrie with a 10th of that force from being assaulted. And thats just so much less men to supply, you will go 10 times longer with youre supply of food at the Eyrie if you can hold it with 10 times lesser defenders, thats a hughe difference in supply and the Eyrie is a large castle compared to the few defenders it needs so storage place for food will be ample there for the few numbers you need to support. It's just far more easy to locally produce some food/get some drinking water for such a smaller force than a large force.

As an object to assault, the eyrie is a 100 times worse than bloody Thermopylia, you have a miles long road that only allows 1 man to pass at a time, and over that whole lengt the assaulting foce could be peppered by arrows and stones at various places whereas a few spearmen can block the assaulting force from going up. I'm not even sure if i need 2000 to hold the Eyrie, the Spartans didn't need so many at thermopylia and there was far more combat width there, basicly Thermopyilia was harder to hold than the Eyrie would be and the persians came simmilary in hughe force.

And thats where the difference is made. One has to consider the opposing force, but as you add numbers i think you wil be adding reason to pick the Eyrie above all else.

For the scenario in this particular topic the Eyrie is probably the best ,as long as winter doesn't set in during those two years. But its main drawback in other scenarios is that while it can be defended from assaults by very few men, it can also be besieged by extremely few. That narrow mountain trail that is the only way up is also the only way down. A few dozen men blocking it up with a makeshift wall and then setting up a guard post behind it is all that is needed to turn the tables on the defenders and keep the castle besieged. Whereas with for example Storm's End the enemy needs to surround it with thousands of men as well as a fleet to stop it from being resupplied or the garrison breaking through.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Smallfolk and the garrison and men at arms all matter, in their relationship with the person who will be directing the defense of the siege. You need people manning the castle, running the household, cooking, fletching arrows, tending to the wounded, cleaning chamber pots, keeping watch etc. We're talking a siege of 2 years, this is not a simple military situation that you have to keep a few soldiers in line for. You are attempting to preserve your castle, which is your small folk.

When Blackfish is anticipating a siege, he scours the countryside and expels the useless mouths. That is not ALL the mouths, because he certainly needs people to run the actual castle. The same goes for Storms End during RR, the problem was keeping all those people fed, and they were necessary to keep alive.

When someone like a Tywin Lannister shows complete disregard for the way his small folk are treated, if they come in between the needs of his house, their ultimate loyalty during a horrible siege will be tested, and all it takes is for a few people inside a sieged castle to turn to make it fail. That was the strength of Storms End, besides its incredibly strong walls, it was the resilience of the people inside under the leadership of Stannis that kept them going throughout the siege until Davos could deliver the meager food relief. Does anyone think that Roose Bolton will last in Winterfell with that many disloyal people inside with him? Does anyone think that a Frey in charge of Riverrun would be able to hold his castle in the case of a siege? The people you are starving with are absolutely necessary to the success of a siege defense, because all it takes is for them to betray the person in charge for the siege to be lifted.

As to Greywater Watch - exactly - a Stark king of old was able to conquer it, and there is no mention of a need of siege. If you are willing to brave the poison swamps, and ROUSes, then you can take Greywater Watch. Its just not worth it for anyone to bother, which is why it seems to be so strong. If, say, there was someone important hiding there, I'm sure Stannis, or a Tywin Lannister could find and conquer that place.

[unSonofStannis]

Storm's End.

Huzzah