Syrio Forel is not dead.

[yolkboy]

Seems an argument is flawed:

http://s28.postimg.org/8pjv202fx/SYRIO.png

The guy is dead.

I already pointed that out and admitted that it poked a huge flaw in my argument unless Jon Snow turns out to be alive.

At this point, I'm just arguing for the sake of discussion.

A word on the App.

It claims Sandor (not Hound) is dead (were pretty darn sure he isnt).

plus others like Jon Snow and Ashara.

The App should not be used for evidence of great mysteries in the book. That's not what it's for. Ran/Grrm is in the tricky situation of not being able to reveal greater mysteries in an app. So it seems presented a bit like the appendix - nothing is given away and 'current cannon' is used - as in what the author wants people to believe at this stage.

The app is great for descriptions and things like that, but we must stop seeking to resolve major mysteries by using it. It is unreliable for this, by it's nature.

[GHOSTSTARK]

The app gives no place of death for him. He has been mentioned in Cersei's POV and is never referred as such, his head was not mentioned as being on the spikes, where it certainly should have been.

So, what became of him?

Did he somehow escape? If so, why would he not go find Arrya?

My theory?

Petyr Motherfucking Baelish.

your theory........ do you think Littlefinger just jumped in and said get behind me i got this... no its obvious that he was killed. probably so obvious that GRRM felt he didnt need to put in sansas pov "and there was aryas dance masters head, he'd been killed by the cloaks"

[Bini]

A word on the App.

It claims Sandor (not Hound) is dead (were pretty darn sure he isnt).

plus others like Jon Snow and Ashara.

The App should not be used for evidence of great mysteries in the book. That's not what it's for. Ran/Grrm is in the tricky situation of not being able to reveal greater mysteries in an app. So it seems presented a bit like the appendix - nothing is given away and 'current cannon' is used - as in what the author wants people to believe at this stage.

The app is great for descriptions and things like that, but we must stop seeking to resolve major mysteries by using it. It is unreliable for this, by it's nature.

I had already said the same thing some posts before.

Though I highly doubt this Syrio Forel thing was ever intended by GRRM to even be a "great mystery of the books", based on his answers when questioned about it.

It is also worth noting that while the app cites a "place of death" for quite a few characters whose deaths are debatable, it always happens with characters who have had their deaths claimed or stated by someone in the books (even if that's not the actual case) or which we have seen happen so as it to seem they're dead, so the app doesn't really bring new information or confirmation of stuff, we pretty much stay in the same place we were in the books on these matters (precisely because of what you said, that Elio and GRRM try not to spoil stuff through this).

In Syrio's case, however, one of the bits of argument the proponents of him being alive use is that nobody ever says he's dead (and we don't see his battle with Trant), and that's true. And so the listing of a "Place of death" for Syrio Forel is indeed a new information, that may fall under a separate category from those other characters.

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

If it was up to some people on this site the novels would have zero deaths. Ned's alive syrio's alive greywinds alive, Arthur Daynes alive, Rhaegars alive and on and on.

[Bini]

If it was up to some people on this site the novels would have zero deaths. Ned's alive syrio's alive greywinds alive, Arthur Daynes alive, Rhaegars alive and on and on.

That, or everyone is disguised as someone else:

Rhaegar is Mance, Ashara (or any other owman) is Lemore, Jojen is Howland, Syrio is Jaqen, Marwyn is Moqorro...

[Margaret Ballinger]

I don't believe in the app. It has errors, also I noticed a few on the Wiki. Stick to the actual evidence in the books. There was no body or mention of him actually dying. So I'm not saying he's alive or dead.

In my earlier post was trying to point out that "if" the theory was true and "if" Syrio was Jaqen, then it looks like based on the evidence that he was not there to help Arya or be her pal. He was tracking a target. "If" Syrio was a faceless man, he was no friend of hers. And neither was Jaqen. He was in the black cells for a reason and he was waiting in that wagon for a reason. The only other person in the black cells of importance enough to warrant the cost of a faceless man was Ned. They were waiting on Ned to make his confession to be taken to the Wall.

I'm not convinced one way or the other, but I am open to the idea because no one has been able to tell me how Jaqen knew her name. He first said her first name "Arya" then confirmed that he really knew her identity by saying, "My lady of Stark."

Also, Rhaegar wasn't Mance, but Rattleshirt was. And Mance was a singer at Winterfell for the King's feast. And Davos is 'the dead man' and Arya is 'no one.' Lord Beric still rides with his men and the Hound rides with them. So yes, people do hide their identities by stealing others. It is common today as is was way back when. Or in a medieval fantasy, or in a galaxy far, far away.

"Aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?"

:p

[FittleLinger]

snip

Short answer:

He knew her name by deducing, as the point is being made in Arya's chapters.

He noticed she was a girl, he knew what was going on, he saw that the gold cloaks were searching for someone important, she was being sent to the NW.

[Margaret Ballinger]

How could a man from Braavos know the Stark family, all their names, ages and descriptions? .

Cersei thought that Arya must have been killed within the Red Keep because they had the gates closed and men on the docks.

There are lots of thiefs and petty criminals about, all hiding from anyone of authority. Who's to say she wasn't some thieving orphan? She was just some girl pretending to be a boy to travel north. Safer to travel in a group than alone. And the gold cloaks made it plain who they were looking for. They were not looking for her.

“I’m the one you want.”

“He’s the one we want.” The officer jabbed his shortsword toward the Bull, who’d come forward to stand beside her, Praed’s cheap steel in his hand.

No one said her name, yet he knew it. First and last. She was headed north, but lots of people live in the north, and lots of people in the north were sworn to Winterfell, lived in or near the lands of Winerfell. She could have been Jeyne Poole heading north, or some other northern girl, yet he knew, a man from Braavos, knew who she was. If he was stuck in the Black Cells, then in that wagon - then how did he even know the Stark family? I don't shoot down other people's theories, but I'm also not saying he is or isn't because of lack of evidence to proove it either way.

I've been working on a Jaqen timeline. My theory is about him being in the cells because he was after Ned, and trying to figure out who hired him. That would explain how he knew Arya name and description because he had to get close to the family to track Ned. But that also opens the question as to how exactly he got close to the family to learn their names and descriptions.

So that's why I keep an open mind to him being Syrio, but I really am not convinced either way. The point I was making is that "if" the Syrio theory is true, then it would just confirm my theory that he was there for Ned, not to help Arya. I don't know how that would change people's view of him knowing how he was just using Arya to get close to her father.

Even if he wasn't Syrio there is a question as to why he was in the cells. That is the question I am seeking an answer to. (and why Rorge was afraid of him) And if he was there for Ned it could be a possible plot twist in the future, maybe, maybe not. If Arya learns that her friend tried to kill her father. That's where I am coming from. It would make sense to me if he was Syrio, but it also wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't. I'm just trying to follow the trail of Jaqen. :p

[Martin's Ghost]

IMO there is a lot of circumstances that could mean that Syrio died, i.e. the dire situation we last see him in. Odds are that he was killed fighting a completely armored knight whom we know survived the fight. We cannot be certain that Syrio died but evidence suggests that it is the most probable outcome.

However, I find it odd that the fate of Syrio isn't of greater importance to, among others, Cersei. Syrio was Arya's "dance instructor", the one who helped her get away. Since finding Arya was of great importance why doesn't it become important to question the one who helped her get away? Cersei, Varys or Littlefinger should all be very interested in questioning Syrio - especially when hearing how he killed all the guardsmen. I therefore find fault in the argument that Syrio meant nothing to the Lannisters or their cronies.

Also, regarding Syrio becoming Jaqar. I do not think this is likely but there is one interesting problem that hasn't been discussed. It is very probable that Jaqen poisoned Weese's dog with basilisk venom. If so, where did he get it? Was it available for him at Harrenhal? Was he allowed to keep his possessions after being incarcerated in the black cells? Was it a mistake of Martin regarding access to this poison? The question of when a FM assumes the identity of Jaqen must consider the availability of basilisk venom.

[Errant Bard]

How could a man from Braavos know the Stark family, all their names, ages and descriptions? .

[...]

No one said her name, yet he knew it. First and last. She was headed north, but lots of people live in the north[...]

A man of Braavos spent months after the god's eye in Lorch's company. A man of braavos being trained that way, he naturally heard what said about the current hot topics, which the Stark usurpation and missing daughter certainly is.

For the rest

• Arya is a girl yet was taken by Yoren, even though the NW does not take girls, as they fled KL
• Arya thought the queen wanted her. Yoren had her flee ahead along with Gendry
• Arya knew water dancing
• Arya has a castle-forged sword, and a brother who can afford such a gift.
• Arya speaks like a noble.
• Arya screams "Winterfell" during the fight at the god's eye.
• Arya has a father who was killed, though he prayed to the old gods "all the time"
• Arya asks to be escorted to Riverrun
• Arry sounds really close to Arya

Those are what Jaqen knows just by listening. He is a trained spy. He just have to use Occam's razor then: who the heck can that girl from Winterfell, obviously a noble with family in Riverrun, protected by the Watch, who thinks the queen herself will send pursuit to get her, with a murdered father, and a name alliterative with "Arya" be? Well, duh, she ain't Margaery Tyrell.

[Margaret Ballinger]

I agree. There just is a lot of questions about Syrio. GRRM was asked and stayed cryptic, saying how readers will have to make up their own minds about it. So I feel he is enjoying yanking our chains about it. Which is why I'm not too worried about it. If he turns out to be Jaqen it would only add more evidence to him being there for Ned. If he wasn't then, oh well. Syrio's cool, but I'm not one of those fans that is heartbroken about it. (Davos, Hound & Arya are my favorites)

I forgot about Weese's death and now that I think on it, it was something....different. You just get a vibe about certain lines, that there is something there worthy of a closer look or odd. My theory is that he was where he needed to be, in the black cells. I hadn't thought about the venom but it makes sense. He might have had it with him while in the black cells. I'm sure he could have hidden it somewhere in his clothes, or perhaps he was able to sneek past the guards in order to get into the cells, so he wouldn't have been searched. Rorge appears afraid of him, which is odd for Rorge's personality, so he probably witnessed Jaqen doing something freaky down in the cells, or if he was with him and they were captured together. I think I shall take a closer look at Rorge to see if he hints at where he was before he wound up in the cells. I'm re-reading the books because I blazed through them and missed a lot of details.

Thanks for the tip! I will look closer at basilisk venom. I don't think it would even available at Harrenhal, but I will re-read that part....again.

[Mikkel]

However, I find it odd that the fate of Syrio isn't of greater importance to, among others, Cersei. Syrio was Arya's "dance instructor", the one who helped her get away.

"Dancing Instructor" is thought be just that, dancing instructor, not fencing master, by everyone not in the Stark household.

Anyway, I agree: If Syrio had gotten away, it's likely Cersei would have cared about finding and interrogating him. Since she doesn't, it seems likely to be because he never actually got away - and being dead, she can't interrogate him, either.

I like Syrio, he seemed a cool guy and an interesting character, but I'm pretty damn sure he's dead.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How could a man from Braavos know the Stark family, all their names, ages and descriptions?

Because the Stark family is part of the top three most important families in Westeros. Anybody spending quality time in Westeros would know.

To put a modern spin on it:

How could a man from Germany (who never visited the US by the way) know the Obama family, their names, ages and descriptions?

Still, I do. Somewhat. While I don't care to.

[gamegeknee]

If it was up to some people on this site the novels would have zero deaths. Ned's alive syrio's alive greywinds alive, Arthur Daynes alive, Rhaegars alive and on and on.

There is a difference between people we saw die and people we did not.

I know this topic is beat to death, but I'm surprised how up in arms everyone is about it. GRRM usually tells us for sure when someone is dead. He's been known to bring people back that were presumed dead but not confirmed.

Why is it so far-fetched that Syrio is alive? Sure, beating an armored Knight is quite unlikely, but maybe he yielded once he knew Arya was safe and they threw him in the black cells.

No one knows for sure but GRRM, and the fact that he's still brought up in the books and his death isn't confirmed makes me think he's alive. Do i have evidence? No, but do I have evidence that he is dead either? No.

Chances are he's dead, but I think there's a reason we don't know for sure.

[joluoto2]

If he's alive he's a secret Targ and Azor A'hai Reborn.

[FittleLinger]

There is a difference between people we saw die and people we did not.

I know this topic is beat to death, but I'm surprised how up in arms everyone is about it. GRRM usually tells us for sure when someone is dead. He's been known to bring people back that were presumed dead but not confirmed.

Why is it so far-fetched that Syrio is alive? Sure, beating an armored Knight is quite unlikely, but maybe he yielded once he knew Arya was safe and they threw him in the black cells.

No one knows for sure but GRRM, and the fact that he's still brought up in the books and his death isn't confirmed makes me think he's alive. Do i have evidence? No, but do I have evidence that he is dead either? No.

Chances are he's dead, but I think there's a reason we don't know for sure.

GRRM doesn't spell out stuff as often as you think.

Syrio said he wouldn't flee, Syrio was poorly armed and armored, Syrio had just pissed off Trant and let Arya escape.

Trant is seen after that, Syrio is not.

They even killed Septa Mordane.

Even if Syrio yielded, which is highly out of character for him, would Trant have spared the guy who beat his crew and him with a stick and let Arya Stark escape? No chance.

I'm with Martin here - I don't get why it gets brought up. It can serve no further point in the plot, it was clearly shown to us that Syrio was going to die protecting Arya.

On the matter of not being sure because it's not spelled out - it's also not spelled out that Roose Bolton killed Robb. So, are we or are we not to doubt it?

[Hypnomagica]

your theory........ do you think Littlefinger just jumped in and said get behind me i got this... no its obvious that he was killed. probably so obvious that GRRM felt he didnt need to put in sansas pov "and there was aryas dance masters head, he'd been killed by the cloaks"

No, I think the Syrio Forel and Petyr Baelish had a relationship which predated Eddard Stark's arrival, I think it is even likely that Baelish is the one who suggest him to Lord Stark in the first place.

I think that whatever happened between Ser Meryn and Syrio, Baelish played some part.

[gamegeknee]

GRRM doesn't spell out stuff as often as you think.

Syrio said he wouldn't flee, Syrio was poorly armed and armored, Syrio had just pissed off Trant and let Arya escape.

Trant is seen after that, Syrio is not.

They even killed Septa Mordane.

Even if Syrio yielded, which is highly out of character for him, would Trant have spared the guy who beat his crew and him with a stick and let Arya Stark escape? No chance.

I'm with Martin here - I don't get why it gets brought up. It can serve no further point in the plot, it was clearly shown to us that Syrio was going to die protecting Arya.

On the matter of not being sure because it's not spelled out - it's also not spelled out that Roose Bolton killed Robb. So, are we or are we not to doubt it?

Yeah I totally agree it's very unlikely that Syrio yielded. But why would we see Syrio with Trant after the fight, if they didn't kill him he would be thrown in the dungeon.

I think it can add one thing to the plot if Syrio is alive and that is assisting Arya in regaining her identity as a Stark. (if she needs the assistance is another question)

It's more than not being spelled out, it was left open-ended, Sure one outcome is much more likely, but still open nonetheless. With Roose killing Robb, yes I suppose that's open too, but we know that Roose wears a pink cape and was in attendance at the Red Wedding. We also have confirmation that he was wearing chain mail. In my opinion, just based on textual evidence it's a 90% certainty that Roose killed Robb. I'd say Syrio dying is about a 70% certainty.

In regards to furthering the plot, I think Syrio could be useful in helping Arya regain her identity as a Stark if she were to run into him at some point. But that's about it.

All in all, I don't think he's alive and I'm okay with that, but at the end of the day a discussion over whether Syrio is alive is much more valid than a lot of discussions I see here. There is a chance, and I think a lot of the hate against these theories is due to the how and why seeming implausible. But Martin has a plan, and if that plan includes Syrio being alive, he will make it make sense and we'll all have one of those "aha" moments.

[Mikkel]

In my opinion, just based on textual evidence it's a 90% certainty that Roose killed Robb. I'd say Syrio dying is about a 70% certainty.

Change the numbers to 99% and 98% respectively, and we have a deal :P

[Fog Machine]

At the time of reading I was pretty convinced Syrio died for all the reasons stated, I liked the notion of his final selfless act, however I'm now wondering if I was right to think the way I did... Trant is not portrayed as some uber-proficient or indeed trustworthy Knight, if he had been bested by Syrio would he 'fess up to that? I doubt it, with so many dead he'd have ample opportunity to claim one corpse was Arya's 'dancing instructor'... and there's the rub too... how would he explain that a mere dancing instructor dispatched five Knights with a wooden sword even if he did kill Syrio?

And if he did, why weren't there further questions about the identity of this 'dancing instructor', especially one who'd aided Arya's escape and one who'd given up his life to protect her?

I like the Schroedingers cat analogy, that's where I am with Syrio, he's either dead or he's not... either way there are questions, I don't see it as a theory that's been exhausted... mind you I've not been here long enough to have got as bored with the notion as some apparently have!