Syrio Forel is not dead.

[SerFelixCulpa]

But, as has been pointed out already, there are no good, plot-related reasons for him not dieing. Indeed, there are good plot-related reasons why he needs to have died.

How would you have felt if Obi-Wan had shown up halfway out in Empire, revealing how he miraculously escaped Vader ? The entire hero-master-journey of Luke would be undone in one fell swoop. That's the sort of impact on Arya's story, a reveal of Syrio alive would have right now.

Furthermore, if Syrio walked away from Trant, he must be the biggest arsehole known to man. Here's his protege, who he knows is on the run and scared. Yet he does nothing to look for her or otherwise assist her. It's even worse if he's Jaqen, who doesn't even bother to tell her the truth before sending her off on her own.

You left one possiblity out: That he's dead.

Trant had no reason to spare Forel (and as already pointed out, he wasn't a very nice guy).

Likewise, Forel had no reason to lie to Arya to make her believe he would die for her, and then simply vanish. Indeed, it would be a singularly cruel thing to do to her.

The plot-related reasons for him to show up later are kind of up to GRRM. As alluded to in recent posts, they would likely have something to do with Arya, though again, that's up to him. Since Obi-Wan *did* show up in Empire after dying earlier, I think you should probably have chosen a better exemplar there to make your point.

Otherwise, I thought it was pretty obvious that the logic tree I was constructing there was *if* Syrio survived, it necessitated two possibilities, not "these are all the possibilities." I have said several times now that I believe Syrio is dead, and therefore, have obviously considered the possibility.

[Lord Reaver]

Since Obi-Wan *did* show up in Empire after dying earlier, I think you should probably have chosen a better exemplar there to make your point.

Clearly I meant showed up alive, rather than as a ghost. I don't really have a problem with Syrio showing up in Aryas dreams or anything like that.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Clearly I meant showed up alive, rather than as a ghost. I don't really have a problem with Syrio showing up in Aryas dreams or anything like that.

So Obi-Wan being a ghost and talking to Luke doesn't undo Luke's hero's journey, but showing up miraculously alive would? Further, let's remember that there was no body where one would have expected it with Kenobi, and this mystified even his murderer. Had Obi-Wan showed up "alive" somewhere (rather than just as a "Force Ghost") it would have been accepted calmly within the context...

...because he's a fictional character and we are talking about fantasy. ;)

[SerFelixCulpa]

In fact, I would swear there is a huuuuuge precedent even within classical fantasy for a powerful, mentor-like character dying and then coming back but not having any ill effect on the main characters' hero's journey...

...don't tell me, it'll come to me in a minute! ;)

[Lord Reaver]

Syrio is no Istari. And Frodo never sees Gandalf again until his journey is over.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Syrio is definitely not an Istari, granted. But Frodo's is not the only hero's journey in those books, which is why I pluralized characters there.

Relax man, I have agreed with you I think Syrio is dead. The existential certainty of those who say he must be dead (or is dead to a ridiculous level of mathematical certainty) irks me is all I am saying. It's fantasy. ;)

[FittleLinger]

In fact, I would swear there is a huuuuuge precedent even within classical fantasy for a powerful, mentor-like character dying and then coming back but not having any ill effect on the main characters' hero's journey...

...don't tell me, it'll come to me in a minute! ;)

I am very amused when this example is given, as in an interview GRRM used exactly that to show how he differs from Tolkien and how that's the thing he would NOT do.

ETA about the above post: Well, then discussing anything is pointless really, as a grand wizard might come up and kill everyone, and revive everyone, so noone is alive or dead. It's fantasy.

[Cas Stark]

Syrio is definitely not an Istari, granted. But Frodo's is not the only hero's journey in those books, which is why I pluralized characters there.

Relax man, I have agreed with you I think Syrio is dead. The existential certainty of those who say he must be dead (or is dead to a ridiculous level of mathematical certainty) irks me is all I am saying. It's fantasy. ;)

I think everyone knows that if GRRM wants to bring him back as a secret Targaryen/dragon rider/the prince that was promised....then he will.

But, that based on what is written in the text, and not using the "the author can do whatever he wants" as an out, that he's dead, for all the reasons that have been given.

[SerFelixCulpa]

I am very amused when this example is given, as in an interview GRRM used exactly that to show how he differs from Tolkien and how that's the thing he would NOT do.

Glad I'm amusing you! ;)

In fairness to me, I deployed that in response to the Obi-Wan example though, not GRRM's style/intentions in the books.

[SerFelixCulpa]

I think everyone knows that if GRRM wants to bring him back as a secret Targaryen/dragon rider/the prince that was promised....then he will.

But, that based on what is written in the text, and not using the "the author can do whatever he wants" as an out, that he's dead, for all the reasons that have been given.

That's why we should come down on the "he's dead" side of the equation, yes.

But there are a couple of ambiguities left in his death quite intentionally, and a concept called misdirection.

[Errant Bard]

In fact, I would swear there is a huuuuuge precedent even within classical fantasy for a powerful, mentor-like character dying and then coming back but not having any ill effect on the main characters' hero's journey...

...don't tell me, it'll come to me in a minute! ;)

"Much as I admire Tolkien, I once again always felt like Gandalf should have stayed dead."

You were saying?

(though of course it had an impact, it made the other heroes growth lesser, because they had the powerful guy with them. Denethor: Gandalf saves, Theoden: Gandalf saves, Saruman: he's here, Osgiliath: still here, and so on. )

[SerFelixCulpa]

"Much as I admire Tolkien, I once again always felt like Gandalf should have stayed dead."

You were saying?

(though of course it had an impact, it made the other heroes growth lesser, because they had the powerful guy with them. Denethor: Gandalf saves, Theoden: Gandalf saves, Saruman: he's here, Osgiliath: still here, and so on. )

See Posts 102-103 and 109.

[Errant Bard]

So Obi-Wan being a ghost and talking to Luke doesn't undo Luke's hero's journey, but showing up miraculously alive would? Further, let's remember that there was no body where one would have expected it with Kenobi, and this mystified even his murderer. Had Obi-Wan showed up "alive" somewhere (rather than just as a "Force Ghost") it would have been accepted calmly within the context...

See Posts 102-103 and 109.

It is obviously related to what you want to say about Syrio or you wouldn't have posted.

Had Obi-Wan turned up alive anywhere but next to Luke, it would have been a waste of film, because he is not the hero, cannot be the hero, should not overshadow the heroes, and a film (or a bloated series that aims to be finished in two books) has no space for that. Had he turned up alive, there would have been an outcry about the stupidity of the duel scene with Vader, questions about the characters' hurdles when teleporting wizard is alive and kicking and obviously powerful enough to do the heavy lifting, questions about Vader's power, who from best/scary fallen Jedi becomes a gimp incapable to kill an old man... And of course, had he turned up alive like people want Syrio to turn up alive, he'd have taken back his place at Luke's side, robbing him of self-discovery, of agency and of adulthood.

As it is, Arya's mantras "silent as a shadow..." are the exact pendant of Ben's ghost "use the force...", and that is all it ever needs to be. If GRRM has spare pages where he could bring back, for no narrative reason at all, a character he killed, he can let them blank and publish his book sooner, or he can use them to move the plot and trim down on the characters again.

There, satisfied?

(Also, about the supposed absence of ill-effects of a mentor character coming back, more generally, reread post #111)

[SerFelixCulpa]

It is obviously related to what you want to say about Syrio or you wouldn't have posted.

Had Obi-Wan turned up alive anywhere but next to Luke, it would have been a waste of film, because he is not the hero, cannot be the hero, should not overshadow the heroes, and a film (or a bloated series that aims to be finished in two books) has no space for that. Had he turned up alive, there would have been an outcry about the stupidity of the duel scene with Vader, questions about the characters' hurdles when teleporting wizard is alive and kicking and obviously powerful enough to do the heavy lifting, questions about Vader's power, who from best/scary fallen Jedi becomes a gimp incapable to kill an old man... And of course, had he turned up alive like people want Syrio to turn up alive, he'd have taken back his place at Luke's side, robbing him of self-discovery, of agency and of adulthood.

As it is, Arya's mantras "silent as a shadow..." are the exact pendant of Ben's ghost "use the force...", and that is all it ever needs to be. If GRRM has spare pages where he could bring back a character he killed for no narrative reason at all, he can let them blank and publish his book sooner, or he can use them to move the plot and trim down on the characters again.

There, satisfied?

No, it was obviously related to a particular point I was trying to rebut re: The Empire Strikes Back. It tangentially concerns the Syrio issue since it came up in a thread discussing it, but I think the context is as I have explained it. That's certainly what I meant when I wrote it, but if you want to assume bad faith on my part, I can't stop you.

Now I'm satisfied, thanks! ;)

[Arataniello]

The app gives no place of death for him. He has been mentioned in Cersei's POV and is never referred as such, his head was not mentioned as being on the spikes, where it certainly should have been.

Looking at the app I see "Place of death - King's Landing". The rest of your post is therefore redundant.

[Errant Bard]

No, it was obviously related to a particular point I was trying to rebut re: The Empire Strikes Back. It tangentially concerns the Syrio issue since it came up in a thread discussing it, but I think the context is as I have explained it. That's certainly what I meant when I wrote it, but if you want to assume bad faith on my part, I can't stop you.

Now I'm satisfied, thanks! ;)

Not bad faith per se, but I tend to assume that a discussion of narratives paralleling the thread's subject narrative is actually relevant to the subject.

Glad to know it was irrelevant and you totally don't think that Syrio could pop up alive somewhere without damaging the story.

[SerFelixCulpa]

Not bad faith per se, but I tend to assume that a discussion of narratives paralleling the thread's subject narrative is actually relevant to the subject.

Glad to know it was irrelevant and you totally don't think that Syrio could pop up alive somewhere without damaging the story.

This is getting tedious. Someone else brought up the Empire parallel (which I thought rather ill chosen) and I responded to it. See Post 101 as well if you have any doubts on that score.

As for the rest of it, I have said at least 4-5 times in this thread now I think Syrio is dead. In the unlikely eventuality (but still more likely than some people would have it) of his reemergence, I would have to see the situation to make an intelligent judgment as to whether it "damaged the story." In my view, to use the Empire example, I see little difference between Kenobi coming back as a "Force Ghost" and coming back "in the flesh" and explaining he used his Deus Ex Machina Brand Pocket Teleporter milliseconds before Vader's lightsaber would have beheaded him. It's there to conveniently remove the mentor figure so that Luke at least appears to be in actual peril, but still allow interaction down the road. Did Kenobi (or Gandalf for that matter) coming back "damage" the story? Well, opinions vary there. You have made yours clear, and I have enjoyed discussing it with you.

FWIW, I am also sorry about the spoiler thing earlier, I have been away from the board for a while and the particular issue just completely failed to register with me until it was pointed out.

[Martin Rheaume]

The only thing that suggests he's dead is that he states that 'The First Sword of Braavos does not run.', and we know that Trant survived. That's strong evidence that he's dead, but it's not conclusive. All the other stuff about being unarmed and facing an armored knight, is meaningless. In stories, people defeat overwhelming odds all the freakin time.

He said he wouldn't run, but he didn't say he would only fight to the death either. The fight could've played out countless ways, and the result is a mystery. Evidence points to the logical conclusion that he's dead, but for people to roll their eyes at the fact that he might be alive is ridiculous. The unseen defies logical conclusions in fantasy stories (yes, even GRRM stories) all the time.

I won't be surprised to see him again, and I won't concede that he's dead until I've read the last book. If he's never mentioned again, it's perfectly safe to assume he's not hiding or someone else, he's just dead, but not until then.

[Chebyshov]

I really hope Syrio, Ashara, Gerion, and Benjen are all throwing a really good party somewhere.

[Errant Bard]

In stories, people defeat overwhelming odds all the freakin time.

I don't feel that what is supposedly usually done in "stories" is to be taken as a measure as what happens in ASOIAF.

In fact, as far as overwhelming odds go, I don't quite remember Ned winning against the Jaime posse, Arthur Dayne winning against twice the number of swordsmen, Robb and Catelyn using lamb legs to get out of the Red Wedding alive, Theon holding Winterfell, Jon defeating Mance on his own, Shagwell's stone winning against Brienne's Oathkeeper, Waymar Royce beating the Others, Khazz beating armoured Barristan, elite Bloodriders beating armoured Jorah, Oberyn beating Gregor and so on.