Syrio Forel is not dead.

[Daedric Justice]

The reason I don't trust the app is because its' just an app.

Who wrote it? What is the source of the information (or lack of)?

Unless the information contained within the app was entered by GRRM himself it is evidence of nothing.

[FittleLinger]

Wow, wait, are you agreeing it should not be used as evidence or that it should? Or are you confirming what I had though was contradictory: that the lies and half-truth it contained should be used as evidence? When you said "No, the app is not evidence of nothing", did you really mean the double negative, and meant "the app is evidence of some things"?

Yes, it IS hard to grasp what you're really on about.

Yeah, sorry, I realized that I didn't use the best wording. Yes, I think that the app should be used as evidence of some things, that was what the double negative meant.

Think of the "who killed Jon Arryn" question. Now imagine an "app" or source that is based on AGOT alone. It will most likely say that he was poisoned by the Lannisters. That's not the truth, as we know from ASOS, but we're not supposed to know the truth by then.

So, if an AGOT source says that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, does it mean that it is unreliable? Does it mean that we should question it if it says that Ned Stark was born in 263 (for example), because it "lied" to us about Jon Arryn's murderer?

The ongoing point was that it says that Jon is Ned's bastard, hence it is unreliable. What I'm arguing is that it's natural that it will says so, as this is a mystery that has not been resolved for us yet.

The reason I don't trust the app is because its' just an app.

Who wrote it? What is the source of the information (or lack of)?

Unless the information contained within the app was entered by GRRM himself it is evidence of nothing.

It was written by Elio and Linda (I believe) with GRRM's specific approval and they communicated with him personally on many of the "sensitive" questions.

[Hypnomagica]

Yeah, sorry, I realized that I didn't use the best wording. Yes, I think that the app should be used as evidence of some things, that was what the double negative meant.

Think of the "who killed Jon Arryn" question. Now imagine an "app" or source that is based on AGOT alone. It will most likely say that he was poisoned by the Lannisters. That's not the truth, as we know from ASOS, but we're not supposed to know the truth by then.

So, if an AGOT source says that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, does it mean that it is unreliable? Does it mean that we should question it if it says that Ned Stark was born in 263 (for example), because it "lied" to us about Jon Arryn's murderer?

The ongoing point was that it says that Jon is Ned's bastard, hence it is unreliable. What I'm arguing is that it's natural that it will says so, as this is a mystery that has not been resolved for us yet.

It was written by Elio and Linda (I believe) with GRRM's specific approval and they communicated with him personally on many of the "sensitive" questions.

What I think is interesting is that Jon, Sandor Clegane, and Syrio Forel are all listed as dead even though none of them were specifically shown to have died.

If even one of them turns out to be alive, I think that means there is a very strong possibility that all three are still alive.

Of the three, most people agree the Jon and Sandor are still alive, so why shouldn't Syrio be as well?

As I see it, his survival would be no more unlikely than Clegane's. And the situation are actually rather parallel.

[FittleLinger]

What I think is interesting is that Jon, Sandor Clegane, and Syrio Forel are all listed as dead even though none of them were specifically shown to have died.

If even one of them turns out to be alive, I think that means there is a very strong possibility that all three are still alive.

Of the three, most people agree the Jon and Sandor are still alive, so why shouldn't Syrio be as well?

As I see it, his survival would be no more unlikely than Clegane's. And the situation are actually rather parallel.

Well, for one, literature is not an exact science. If Clegane turns out to be alive (he is), does it mean that Ned is also alive, because the app says he's dead?

About situations - there is one great difference. Noone is actively trying to kill an unarmed and unarmored Sandor.

You're kind of saying that if Jon is not Ned's bastard, then everyone's parents are not the ones they think they are.

[mormont]

What I think is interesting is that Jon, Sandor Clegane, and Syrio Forel are all listed as dead even though none of them were specifically shown to have died.

One of these three is not like the others. If Jon is dead, it was not an 'off-screen' death.

If even one of them turns out to be alive, I think that means there is a very strong possibility that all three are still alive.

The flaw in this reasoning should be obvious. Does that also go for everyone else the app lists as dead? Is there a 'very strong possibility' that Rhaegar, Aerys, Ned, and Jon Arryn are all alive too?

Of the three, most people agree the Jon and Sandor are still alive, so why shouldn't Syrio be as well?

That's what we've been discussing for the last ten pages.

As I see it, his survival would be no more unlikely than Clegane's. And the situation are actually rather parallel.

Sandor was left dying of his wounds, whereas Syrio was last seen engaging in a fight. Sandor is left lying in the woods, free and unhunted, whereas Syrio is left in the middle of a bloody coup. In the very next book after Sandor's 'death', we're presented with a chapter where there are numerous clues that he had survived (including an actual appearance by a character who is almost certainly Sandor), whereas there are no such clues in the four books released since Syrio last appeared. Sandor's death is not widely known about and he is believed by many in Westeros to be alive, whereas nobody thinks Syrio is alive as far as we know.

You can argue about whether one is more likely than the other, but I can't see any parallels.

[MyLittleFinger]

Well, for one, literature is not an exact science. If Clegane turns out to be alive (he is), does it mean that Ned is also alive, because the app says he's dead?

About situations - there is one great difference. Noone is actively trying to kill an unarmed and unarmored Sandor.

You're kind of saying that if Jon is not Ned's bastard, then everyone's parents are not the ones they think they are.

Welcome to the forums.

[Hypnomagica]

Well, for one, literature is not an exact science. If Clegane turns out to be alive (he is), does it mean that Ned is also alive, because the app says he's dead?

About situations - there is one great difference. Noone is actively trying to kill an unarmed and unarmored Sandor.

You're kind of saying that if Jon is not Ned's bastard, then everyone's parents are not the ones they think they are.

Ummm, what?

The comparison I was making had less to do with with the app and more to do with the situations we last saw the characters in. What Jon, Syrio, and Sandor all have in common is that the were last seen in situations where they are unlikely to survive.

Arya leaves Syrio facing a fully armored knight with only a broken stick.

Arya leaves Sandor to slowly die from wounds which are apparently fatal.

Jon's chapter end with him being stabbed multiple times.

All three character's ultimate fates are unconfirmed and all three have the possibility of being either dead or alive.

I was only pointing out the fallibility of the app if one of these three characters turn out to be alive.

Obviously Eddard is dead, he is publicly decapitated, how did you even draw that comparison?

[Hypnomagica]

Sandor was left dying of his wounds, whereas Syrio was last seen engaging in a fight. Sandor is left lying in the woods, free and unhunted, whereas Syrio is left in the middle of a bloody coup. In the very next book after Sandor's 'death', we're presented with a chapter where there are numerous clues that he had survived (including an actual appearance by a character who is almost certainly Sandor), whereas there are no such clues in the four books released since Syrio last appeared. Sandor's death is not widely known about and he is believed by many in Westeros to be alive, whereas nobody thinks Syrio is alive as far as we know.

You can argue about whether one is more likely than the other, but I can't see any parallels.

Both character were closely involved with Arya Stark immediately before "dying".

Arya leaves both characters before actually witnessing their ultimate fate.

Arya thinks both of them are dead.

This is the parallel I was drawing, that of the circumstances of their deaths from a narrative stand point.

[FittleLinger]

Ummm, what?

The comparison I was making had less to do with with the app and more to do with the situations we last saw the characters in. What Jon, Syrio, and Sandor all have in common is that the were last seen in situations where they are unlikely to survive.

Arya leaves Syrio facing a fully armored knight with only a broken stick.

Arya leaves Sandor to slowly die from wounds which are apparently fatal.

Jon's chapter end with him being stabbed multiple times.

All three character's ultimate fates are unconfirmed and all three have the possibility of being either dead or alive.

I was only pointing out the fallibility of the app if one of these three characters turn out to be alive.

Obviously Eddard is dead, he is publicly decapitated, how did you even draw that comparison?

Jon's death is a major plot point, and a cliffhanger. Sandor's is a mystery. Does Syrio fit in here? If your answer is yes, then we agree to disagree and aknowledge our differences in reading comprehension.

Again, refer to my Jon Arryn example. Failing to spoil a mystery/major poltpoint is not the same as being "wrong". If the app says different birth years for example, or makes mistakes such as saying that Drogon is the green dragon for instance, then I could see the point of it being unreliable. The difference is that it's obvious when a "wrong" information is stated wrongly intentionally.

[Hypnomagica]

Jon's death is a major plot point, and a cliffhanger. Sandor's is a mystery. Does Syrio fit in here? If your answer is yes, then we agree to disagree and aknowledge our differences in reading comprehension.

Again, refer to my Jon Arryn example. Failing to spoil a mystery/major poltpoint is not the same as being "wrong". If the app says different birth years for example, or makes mistakes such as saying that Drogon is the green dragon for instance, then I could see the point of it being unreliable. The difference is that it's obvious when a "wrong" information is stated wrongly intentionally.

I think Syrio's "death" is obviously left as a mystery, or at least an open question. And I do not care for the way you say "reading comprehension", my lord. No, I don't care for it one damn bit.

I cannot speak for the Jon Arryn example because I did not have the app, but I think in that instance we obviously agree as that is basically the point I am aguing in regards to the deaths.

[FittleLinger]

I think Syrio's "death" is obviously left as a mystery, or at least an open question. And I do not care for the way you say "reading comprehension", my lord. No, I don't care for it one damn bit.

I cannot speak for the Jon Arryn example because I did not have the app, but I think in that instance we obviously agree as that is basically the point I am aguing in regards to the deaths.

That's exactly my point about the difference in reading comprehension. I don't think it was left as a mystery at all. It was there without being spelled out. Just like Roose Bolton was not spelled out as Robb's killer but only described.

[mormont]

Both character were closely involved with Arya Stark immediately before "dying".

Arya leaves both characters before actually witnessing their ultimate fate.

Arya thinks both of them are dead.

This is the parallel I was drawing, that of the circumstances of their deaths from a narrative stand point.

Fair enough. But the circumstances of the deaths, I think, are rather different: I don't see a parallel that would make me think that if one had survived, that would make it likely that the other had, from a narrative standpoint or any other.

[starklinson]

Both when reading and watching, I just kind of automatically assumed he was dead. However, as time passed I came across some interesting theories and hints.

Something that very much caught my eye was his "status" as stated on the Game of Thrones wikia: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Syrio_Forel

Typically, it would say "alive" or "deceased", but his says "uncertain". That's when I realized that there is a chance he may be alive.

My ultimate conclusion to his status is unknown. He was fighting when we last saw him. There's a certain percent chance he may have won the fight and fled, or that he was, indeed, killed. But we have no evidence to back up either situation. I think it's just going to be another one of those open-ended mysteries that GRRM likes to never have a clear answer to.

This case is not about evidence, just probability. We can guess, but we may never know for sure.

[soulnado]

Seems unlikely as Ser Meryn is still alive and I would assume that when the KG fight its to the death.

Syrio himself says "the first sword of bravos does not run" so he must defeat ser meryn or that would be running.

so if we assume that syrio defeated merryn (non leathally) and then went off somewhere would Cersei be super annoyed with him for being knocked out/minor wounded by an un armored foreign dancing master,if I was her I would of kicked him off the KG and sent him to the wall

He's dead.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Both when reading and watching, I just kind of automatically assumed he was dead. However, as time passed I came across some interesting theories and hints.

Something that very much caught my eye was his "status" as stated on the Game of Thrones wikia: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Syrio_Forel

Typically, it would say "alive" or "deceased", but his says "uncertain". That's when I realized that there is a chance he may be alive.

My ultimate conclusion to his status is unknown. He was fighting when we last saw him. There's a certain percent chance he may have won the fight and fled, or that he was, indeed, killed. But we have no evidence to back up either situation. I think it's just going to be another one of those open-ended mysteries that GRRM likes to never have a clear answer to.

This case is not about evidence, just probability. We can guess, but we may never know for sure.

That's the TV show wiki. AWOIAF says he died.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Syrio_Forel

[RumHam]

Both when reading and watching, I just kind of automatically assumed he was dead. However, as time passed I came across some interesting theories and hints.

Something that very much caught my eye was his "status" as stated on the Game of Thrones wikia: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Syrio_Forel

Typically, it would say "alive" or "deceased", but his says "uncertain". That's when I realized that there is a chance he may be alive.

My ultimate conclusion to his status is unknown. He was fighting when we last saw him. There's a certain percent chance he may have won the fight and fled, or that he was, indeed, killed. But we have no evidence to back up either situation. I think it's just going to be another one of those open-ended mysteries that GRRM likes to never have a clear answer to.

This case is not about evidence, just probability. We can guess, but we may never know for sure.

Right now that page says he is a unicorn, so I guess he must be hanging out on Skagos with Rickon.

iki/Syrio_Forel

[Southron Sammy]

When Arya is in the stables just before she kills that boy in AGOT she is surrounded by dead bodies. This is just after she runs from the kingsguard vs. syrio fight. She hears "Fear cuts deeper than swords" I don't have the quote but she hears it whispered not just in her head.

Syrio is one of the dead men in the stables. He's used his faceless skill to disguise himself. Syrio Forell never runs from a fight but the assasin that's wearing his face will run when it suits him. He ran followed Arya to harrenhall made some hot weasel soup, killed a squid king (the wet one) got a key and a face from a pig boy and is now good friends with Sam the slayer and Alleras/Sarella the sphinx

[SerFelixCulpa]

When Arya is in the stables just before she kills that boy in AGOT she is surrounded by dead bodies. This is just after she runs from the kingsguard vs. syrio fight. She hears "Fear cuts deeper than swords" I don't have the quote but she hears it whispered not just in her head.

Here's the quotation to which I think you refer:

Calm as still water, a small voice whispered in her ear. Arya was so startled she almost dropped her bundle. She looked around wildly, but there was no one in the stable but her, and the horses, and the dead men.

Quiet as a shadow, she heard. Was it her own voice, or Syrio's? She could not tell, yet somehow it calmed her fears.

Interesting, I do not think I had seen this argued as actually being Syrio. I suppose it's possible, though I think other posters have pointed out some timeline problems with Syrio actually having been Jaqen.

[RumHam]

Here's the quotation to which I think you refer:

Interesting, I do not think I had seen this argued as actually being Syrio. I suppose it's possible, though I think other posters have pointed out some timeline problems with Syrio actually having been Jaqen.

If nothing else there's definitely a timeline problem with Syrio somehow getting away from Trant and ahead of Arya so he can lay down in a pile of dead bodies to....wait why would he do that again?

[SerFelixCulpa]

If nothing else there's definitely a timeline problem with Syrio somehow getting away from Trant and ahead of Arya so he can lay down in a pile of dead bodies to....wait why would he do that again?

I think the argument would go that Syrio was 'shadowing' Arya and making sure she got safely out of the castle before he went off to assume his new identity. That doesn't seem very likely, but I think it's how the argument would go.