Which continent is more "evolved," Westeros or Essos?

[Sylva Santagar]

The free cities are probably more advanced than Westeros in terms of Government etc I would say.

What does that mean???

[Fat Trell]

Oligarchies and City-State Democracies are older then Westerosi feudalism.

[sanzor]

Taken as a whole...definetly Essos.

It's the same as comparing medieval Western Europe to medieval Ottoman Empire or even arabic world (pre Poitiers battle ).Essos is far more complex,resourceful,cultural...etc.Don't forget after all the first men came from Essos.Regarding slavery that is a drawback socially speaking but that doesnt really affect their economy like it did for the Roman Empire in its final stages.

Westeros doesnt really come with anything new ,the feudal system is old..compared to Bravoosi or Pentos ,or Volantis where they have elections.

Can we say now that medieval age is superior to antiquity?nop we cant.Man stopped enslaving man but every other aspect of life ,degenerated,fell into a dark era of unknown,controlled by the church.Same goes with Essos and Westeros.

And i bet someone will say "well hey Westeros has CoTF"...and even in that occult aspect Essos has Quarth and..Aashai.

[OrangeStallion]

Westeros Is in between the two ends of Essos.

Since Westeros is a feudal society, all resources are owned by the top portion because that is the law (feudalism is a borderline brother to communism), the lower and lower classes in turn are delegated other resources and power accordingly by the upper most class' wishes.

The Free Cities represent a more capitalist (but not completely capitalist, due to the prevalence of slaves in the labor force, and some cities still have monarchs ruling them) society. The Free Cities are more evolved than anywhere else in GRRM's world because capitalism allows a free movement of people throughout the social structure (as we see with "cheese traders" Illyrio and Xaro, unless they're slaves so they're not entirely capitalist paradises).

The least evolved places are beyond the Wall in the North, and anyplace on Essos not connected to a free city (Dothraki Sea). Beyond the wall, the Wildlings are shut out by the Feudal Society of Westeros and generally just follow the rule of the strongest fighter, whereas in Essos the free cities just moved on in evolution without the Dothraki (though you could argue that they are accommodated as the Cities just sent them along their way with "gifts").

The Feudal society of Westeros doesn't allow for the kind of rapid unchecked evolution that the societies in the free cities. Since the free cities are run by basically a Merchant class, the demand of what people want allows traders to rise to power to supply the demand, whereas in westeros power and success is determined in large part to who you were born to. Beyond the wall and in the Dothraki sea, all bets are off, however.

[OrangeStallion]

Also, I think it was mentioned in the books somewhere that if the Cities weren't too preoccupied fighting each other they could unite and defeat the Iron Throne. If the free cities could rid free their slave population and increase job competition, their innovation would soon leave Westeros in the dust.

It just seems like the Free Cities have decided that trade is the way to become successful and have power and the Westerosi are kind of like the cavemen beating each other in the head with sticks to become the alpha male.

[Lord Reaver]

Since Westeros is a feudal society, all resources are owned by the top portion because that is the law (feudalism is a borderline brother to communism), the lower and lower classes in turn are delegated other resources and power accordingly by the upper most class' wishes.

Uh, no. Feudalism and communism are about as far removed from each other as you can get. Strictly speaking, feudalism isn't even a socio-economic model at all, but rather a later term applied to the quite messy system of protection/production that existed in the medieval period in europe.

Communism, on the other hand is a utopian eco-social model where there is no personal ownership nor centralized government.

[Lord Reaver]

Can we say now that medieval age is superior to antiquity?nop we cant.Man stopped enslaving man but every other aspect of life ,degenerated,fell into a dark era of unknown,controlled by the church.Same goes with Essos and Westeros.

Sorry, but you're over 100 years behind in your historical understanding of the medieval period there, buddy.

The medieval period was definitely "superior" to antiquity by pretty much any standard you want to measure. The whole "dark ages" thing is a myth originated by the victorians (notorious for having a penchant for antiquity), which unfortunately stuck in the minds of many people.

[Fanless Mace]

what exactly do we mean when we talk about advancement and modernity? before we have an anwer to that it is near impossible to answer the question...

I think each person's answer reflects their own perception of these definitions, which makes for a better debate. :-)

[Sullen]

(feudalism is a borderline brother to communism)

Wut.

Communism wants to do away with social classes and hierarchies, allowing for social equality for all, something that goes against the very definition of feudalism.

[Fat Trell]

Feudalism is a bit like the mythical final stage of Communism. Communism is supposed to go:

• proletariat led revolution
  
• benevolent dictatorship to solidify power, assure the upper class doesn't continue to dominate the people, redistribute wealth
  
• the state slowly dissolves as communities(hence communism) become mostly self sufficient, classless, and stable
  

So yeah true communism(not something that we've ever seen applied to the real world) is somewhat like feudalism's basis around self run fiefdoms. The exact opposite in theory but similar in application.

[Lord Reaver]

Feudalism is a bit like the mythical final stage of Communism. Communism is supposed to go:

• the state slowly dissolves as communities(hence communism) become mostly self sufficient, classless, and stable

So yeah true communism(not something that we've ever seen applied to the real world) is somewhat like feudalism's basis around self run fiefdoms. The exact opposite in theory but similar in application.

I don't think you've quite grasped feudalism if you think it is in any way classless. Or stable, for that matter.

[RoamingRonin]

The one's whose idea of entertainment isn't watching to see which child out of three a bear eats first.

Depends what parts of Essos.

The free cities and Qarth are miles ahead in terms of government systems and economies then westeros.

Slaver's bay however is not as advanced as westeros.

These

:agree:

[Fat Trell]

I don't think you've quite grasped feudalism if you think it is in any way classless. Or stable, for that matter.

Try reading the whole post next time bud.

[Chatty Duelist]

The whole "dark ages" thing is a myth originated by the victorians (notorious for having a penchant for antiquity), which unfortunately stuck in the minds of many people.

Well, actualy the term "Dark Ages", though not used often, denotes the period because we have so little information of the time, not because it was particularly shitty or anything. (In fact, during the "Dark Ages", China and the Islamic Caliphates reached their golden ages.)

[sanzor]

Sorry, but you're over 100 years behind in your historical understanding of the medieval period there, buddy.

The medieval period was definitely "superior" to antiquity by pretty much any standard you want to measure. The whole "dark ages" thing is a myth originated by the victorians (notorious for having a penchant for antiquity), which unfortunately stuck in the minds of many people.

For me medieval means from 476 to ~1450.Before lets say 1400 standards were so damn low in western europe as well as eastern europe compared to antiquity.Sure you may say there was progress but it was only begining..Real progress in any science was made after 1450 with the geograhical discoveries ...etc.I think you mistake the middle ages with the Rennaiscence period which was indeed superior.A lot of "progress" in medicine ,literature,chemistry was made by people restudying again the documents and books from antiquity which the church kept hidden/burned.It wasn't basically a progress it was a rediscovery of antic wisdom.

[Ziggy Targdust]

Essos is doing ok when you factor in how the Doom must have set them back.

Been much longer since Westeros had the long night.

Everybody in Westereos came from Essos. There were no humans before the first men correct?

[Fat Trell]

Wow, you would think such an interest in a medieval based fantasy series would encourage basic understanding of the time period.

The "Dark Ages" are a myth. The Church did not stop or slow learning. The Renaissance love for Antiquity had much more to do with art and philosophy than it did with science and technology.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

The Free Cities and the Reach are the most advanced.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

For me medieval means from 476 to ~1450.Before lets say 1400 standards were so damn low in western europe as well as eastern europe compared to antiquity.Sure you may say there was progress but it was only begining..Real progress in any science was made after 1450 with the geograhical discoveries ...etc.I think you mistake the middle ages with the Rennaiscence period which was indeed superior.A lot of "progress" in medicine ,literature,chemistry was made by people restudying again the documents and books from antiquity which the church kept hidden/burned.It wasn't basically a progress it was a rediscovery of antic wisdom.

As Lord Reaver and Ser Marlo pointed out, that's just a fable. A nice tale the writers of the renaissance made up to make themselves look better.

[khal cium]

Westeros have weirnet and cryotech.