TWOP/PTV Unsullied Thread, Part VII: [Book & Show Spoilers]

[bobbybuilderton]

So when Stannis says in the show that "I will punish them with any arms at my disposal" or when Stannis says "I hate a great many things but I suffer them all the same" how is that not a clear indication that Stannis is just using Mel? Is it really the writers fault that the audience doesn't pick it up or that Stannis fans have sand in their vaginas?

That's clear to us because we know him from the books. To people who haven't read the books, what he was referring to isn't all that clear. When the majority of the people think he is under Melisandre's thumb and has fallen for her god hook, line, and sinker, yes it's the writing's fault. I'm not even a huge Stannis fan and I'm basing my opinion that they've messed him up in the show off of what I've seen unspoiled people say. The ones who understand that he is conflicted and doesn't wholeheartedly follow her are few and far between.

[juanml82]

So when Stannis says in the show that "I will punish them with any arms at my disposal" or when Stannis says "I hate a great many things but I suffer them all the same" how is that not a clear indication that Stannis is just using Mel? Is it really the writers fault that the audience doesn't pick it up or that Stannis fans have sand in their vaginas?

As I've said in Stannis thread, how can he be a King if he can't rule his own keep. If he didn't want to burn them, then h doesn't burn them

[Widows_Blood]

That's clear to us because we know him from the books. To people who haven't read the books, what he was referring to isn't all that clear. When the majority of the people think he is under Melisandre's thumb and has fallen for her god hook, line, and sinker, yes it's the writing's fault. I'm not even a huge Stannis fan and I'm basing my opinion that they've messed him up in the show off of what I've seen unspoiled people say. The ones who understand that he is conflicted and doesn't wholeheartedly follow her are few and far between.

As I said, the show has made it clear. That entire episode from Stannis disposition during the burnings to his remarks during the dinner scene made it perfectly clear where he stands on Melisandre. The problem is many of the subtleties of the story are lost on show watchers. The story is so large and complicated that it is very difficult for people who only watch the show to keep track of everything.

As I've said in Stannis thread, how can he be a King if he can't rule his own keep. If he didn't want to burn them, then h doesn't burn them

It isn't an issue of being unable to rule his own keep but the fact that Stannis feels his only hope for winning the throne is through Mel's magic and the LoL so he is acquiescing to her authority. The last time he followed Davos advice and left Melisandre on Dragonstone his entire military ended up at the bottom of the Blackwater. He is suffering Melisandre because he has no choice.

[The Onion Sleight]

Oh boy. Stannis being at the Wall changes things so much (for the better, really, because I thought Jon and Stannis had some amazing conversations). They might be boring (<-boring?) people but the conversations were good.

Absolutely! I loooooved and enjoyed every sentence of Jon / Stannis interaction and their relationship so much!

Their conversation on the Wall after the Battle of Castle Black is one of my favourite chapters and the Jon chapters with Stan in it from ADWD were some of the most brilliant of the whole book (everything from "You haggle like a crone with a codfish!", to the nod of approval, to "he only threatened to behead me twice", to making plans together about the wildlings, Others,... to Stannis listening to Jon about the Clans and Deepwood Motte, to Jon's thoughts about Stannis and his struggle with the NW's neutrality, their letter(s), and so on...).

Stan made me beginning to love Jon's POV more and more, and to like Jon as a character more; and yes, the conversations were amazing and MORE than good :-)

Edit: And they have to be amazing and more than good on the show! I think both characters should & will benefit from it (and from each other), and it will bring postive changes to their (especially of course Stannis') portrayals.

[Azazell0]

Absolutely! I loooooved and enjoyed every sentence of Jon / Stannis interaction and their relationship so much!

I definitely agree as well. The interactions between Jon and Stannis at Castle Black were always my favourites. I really hope the show handles the major events well.

[spork]

From PTV speculation thread:

Anyway, I think most, of not all of the Stark kids left will be left standing when all is said and done. Why? After I read Pallas'awesome Ode ToHouse Stark in another thread, I thought about her, Starkian theory and, well, it just makes sense. I want Ned and Cat and Robb and all those who faithfully served them to not have died in vain. I want the remaining Stark siblings (Arya, Sansa, Bran, Rickon and Jon Snow - thats actually quite a lot of remaining Starks when you count them all up) to end up reuniting somewhere down the line and turn out to have the most House left of anyone. I want the children of Ned-the-Good Stark to far exceed their father's goodness legacy by actually saving their entire world from WWs, giant spiders, and, well, Winter...because, yanno, it IS coming (yeah, right Winter, whatev).

Yay, last Stark standing! I'm always glad when Unsullied develop similar theories to us bookwalkers. Wish they'd linked to the original "Ode to House Stark" though.

[PatrickStormborn]

So when Stannis says in the show that "I will punish them with any arms at my disposal" or when Stannis says "I hate a great many things but I suffer them all the same" how is that not a clear indication that Stannis is just using Mel? Is it really the writers fault that the audience doesn't pick it up or that Stannis fans have sand in their vaginas?

I thought it was obvious that he was referring to Selyse. Declaring that he hates Melisandre and only suffers her contradicts his actions throughout season 3... which would be fine by me, but it would certainly reflect badly on the writers.

[Lady of the Wind]

From PTV speculation thread:

Yay, last Stark standing! I'm always glad when Unsullied develop similar theories to us bookwalkers. Wish they'd linked to the original "Ode to House Stark" though.

S/he is refering to a post in this thread, the fourth I think.

I loved that when I read it. Many Unsullied are becoming so cynical so it's refreshing to see that some of them still have hope. I also generelly like when they speculate and discuss the show in a broader sense.

[bobbybuilderton]

Based off of the trailers, they will probably keep this dialogue in the show:

“My lord, I . . . I do not understand . . . Joffrey gave you Harrenhal, made you Lord Paramount of the Trident . . . why . . . ”

“Why should I wish him dead?” Littlefinger shrugged. “I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.”

Which makes me happy, because plenty of the unsullied don't buy the Olenna/necklace poison because they think it's unnecessarily complex and only seems to hurt the Tyrells. LITTLE DO THEY KNOW, confusing people and doing things that don't help you is scheming 101 in Westeros

[ebevan91]

The scene with Podrick and Tyrion was so good! There are so few truly good characters in this show. I hope that doesn't mean they'll kill him.

If this poster is referring to St. Tyrion the First, then it is confirmed that Tyrion has been whitewashed to hell and back. Dude better kill Shae at the end of this season, and kill her good too.

[spork]

Winner for the most disturbing, bizarre scene has to be Jaime raping Cersei on the floor by their son's dead body. Yeah, that even felt surreal to type.

I was wondering how that would be perceived by the Unsullied. We know it was more mutual, but the show portrayal was kind of iffy. I'm sad that's how it came across.

[spork]

As for Tyrion on trial, I guess I should be more nervous than I am. Out of the Lannisters, Tyrion is the Lannister I come closest to actually liking. Guess it's not so close that I'm worried about him though. Admittedly, in all seriousness, it seems unlikely that Tywin would want Tyrion put to death for treason. Tryion does have the last name of Lannister, after all.

There have been several comments on PTV to this effect, basically thinking Tyrion will be acquitted. To quote Ramsay Snow, they "must not be paying attention." It makes me excited for their reaction when he is actually declared guilty/Oberyn loses.

ETA: and this from James Hibberd (though not Unsullied):

So then Jaime ... well ... no other way to put this, really. He rapes his sister beside their corpse of their murdered son. This is the same guy who protected Brienne from a similar fate last year ("Similar"? Or the same? Debate away). "It's not right," Cersei says, and that's an understatement -- though "it's not right" has been their relationship from the start. Thankfully, this is not a CBS reality show or we'd be prompted to tweet about this with a #rapecest hashtag.

[Independent George]

I was wondering how that would be perceived by the Unsullied. We know it was more mutual, but the show portrayal was kind of iffy. I'm sad that's how it came across.

It came across as rape in the show because it was unambiguously rape in the show. Cersei was whimpering "Stop, it's wrong" the entire time.

I really want to see an interview with D & D explaining themselves, because they've got a lot to explain. However much I hate their portrayal of Stannis, that's very much a matter of inerpretation. This... this is completely different.

[Dalan]

Was I hallucinating when I saw Cersei kissing Jaime back? If not, hopefully they will catch this on rewatch.

[Independent George]

The results are in, and it's unanimous:

And Jaime, you were doing so well on redeeming yourself for pushing Bran and now you go and do that. Back to the drawing board for you.

Jaime...shame on him. I just can't even...

Winner for the most disturbing, bizarre scene has to be Jaime raping Cersei on the floor by their son's dead body. Yeah, that even felt surreal to type.

Jaime seemed so sensible. Until his libido took over and he raped his sister next to their son's corpse. When he says she's a hateful woman, it's like he finally sees what she is. It's almost as though he decided he doesn't respect her anymore and so it's okay to take what he wants. It's a disappointing ending to the scene. But I guess we wouldn't want total redemption for Jaime, would we?

The Jaimie part was...disturbing. But then again, I didn't even feel sorry for Cersei. I hate her like that. But I'm proven right, Jaimie has always been and will always be an asshole. I know a lot of people thought he was redeeming himself, but I never bought it, simply because he has never expressed remorse about pushing Bran. He's kind of sociopath like that. A handsome, charismatic sociopath.

Well, whatever goodwill Jaime got from me during his incarceration and adventure with Brienne is now gone. What the hell, Jaime? I take back everything I said about him being inherently good.

D&D have a lot to answer for.

[Benjaario Starkharis]

They messed up with Jaime, but I was already expecting the non-readers to have a terrible reaction even if it were less rapey. The funeral sex was one of the most disgusting scenes in the books IMHO and delayed my acceptance of Jaime's redemption until AFFC, when he burned Cersei's letter. It's part of the greyness of the character, I suppose. An evil character turned good is not the definition of a grey character. Jaime has his highs and his lows, and the lows happen mostly when he is near Cersei.

So, would the Jaime fans here say they should've cut the sex scene or just make it less rapey? Rape or not, I don't think the reactions of the non-readers would be that much different, because it's mostly the incest that disgusts them. I'm not a huge Jaime fan, but I was hoping they would cut it due to the risks of ruining his redemption arc, especially with the lack of inner monologue.

[Rill Redthorn]

They should have made it less rapey. Over on the "Jamie" thread someone has posted (several times) the book dialogue, which includes Cersei moaning things like "do me, do me now," and "yes, my sweet brother, yes" and guiding Jaime into her with her hands -- quite clearly not rape. This was quite clearly rape. Incest sex in the sept is in character for Jaime (book version), but forcing himself on Cersei just isn't.

On the other hand, I suppose after they made him a kinslayer for no good reason turning him into a rapist as well is, sigh, not all that surprising. :bang:

[Benjaario Starkharis]

They should have made it less rapey. Over on the "Jamie" thread someone has posted (several times) the book dialogue, which includes Cersei moaning things like "do me, do me now," and "yes, my sweet brother, yes" and guiding Jaime into her with her hands -- quite clearly not rape. This was quite clearly rape. Incest sex in the sept is in character for Jaime (book version), but forcing himself on Cersei just isn't.

On the other hand, I suppose after they made him a kinslayer for no good reason turning him into a rapist as well is, sigh, not all that surprising. :bang:

Yeah, but I just don't think it would improve the reactions of the non-readers much. To many viewers the twincest is his biggest crime.

[Rill Redthorn]

Yeah, but I just don't think it would improve the reactions of the non-readers much. To many viewers the twincest is his biggest crime.

Really? Consensual sex with your fraternal twin is worse than rape? ...Okay. That's not how my morality-o-meter is calibrated, though.

[Benjaario Starkharis]

Really? Consensual sex with your fraternal twin is worse than rape? ...Okay. That's not how my morality-o-meter is calibrated, though.

Most of them hate Cersei, so they don't care if she was raped or not (some even think she deserved it), but, from what I've seen, the main thing they didn't like was Jaime returning to the twincest.