TWOP/PTV Unsullied Thread, Part VII: [Book & Show Spoilers]

[Mr Fixit]

The Tyrells don't really need Sansa, but they benefit from Littlefinger's plan to use Sansa and have her flee. No one is looking at the Tyrells anymore because Sansa's escape is pretty much an admission of guilt, so crazy Cersei's paranoia is satisfied.

Yes, but nothing there requires the necklace/hairnet part of the plan. It's a needless complication that can go wrong in so many ways: Sansa may opt not to wear the damn thing after all, Olenna may have an unexpected problem snatching the crystal off Sansa (much easier to simply smuggle it herself, or on Margaery, or in any number of ways) without anyone noticing, etc...

Sansa's role as a covenient scapegoat is established by her disappearance all the same; the fact that she carried the poison on her doesn't change anything except that it complicates the plan for no obvious reason. As far as I know, they never learned where the poison came from.

The only thing that could in my mind explain it is if Olenna was worried she/the Tyrell entourage would be carefully searched so she had to involve someone else. That theory is, however, quite implausible.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Yes, but nothing there requires the necklace/hairnet part of the plan. It's a needless complication that can go wrong in so many ways: Sansa may opt not to wear the damn thing after all, Olenna may have an unexpected problem snatching the crystal off Sansa (much easier to simply smuggle it herself, or on Margaery, or in any number of ways) without anyone noticing, etc...

Sansa's role as a covenient scapegoat is established by her disappearance all the same; the fact that she carried the poison on her doesn't change anything except that it complicates the plan for no obvious reason. As far as I know, they never learned where the poison came from.

The only thing that could in my mind explain it is if Olenna was worried she/the Tyrell entourage would be carefully searched so she had to involve someone else. That theory is, however, quite implausible.

Again, the part of the plan that requires this is that Littlefinger wants Sansa to know that she carried the poison that killed Joffrey, which gives her some culpability in his death rather than just fleeing the scene innocently. So how else could Littlefinger have planned to involve Sansa in his death but to have her carry the poison that killed him? It's not about the Tyrells, it's about Sansa being manipulated. I thought it was kind of clear in my previous post.

It's another case of "Wow everything Littlefinger plans works flawlessly," which is a bit of a problem, but Dontos did a good enough job convincing Sansa to wear it, and I'm sure Olenna practiced before taking out the gem. We also have no idea if there was no backup plan had something gone awry and the ideal situation couldn't happen.

[PerraBaelish]

I already posted in the episode thread, that I believe this is a play by Olenna to get the position of Master of Coin. Remember when she told Tywin that the Iron Bank will have its due and that he is going to need her help to pay them back? She probably realized that the whole Margary becomes Queen deal is not good for them as long as the Lannisters have the King, Hand of the King, Master of Coin and Commander of Kingsguard. Additionally Tywin is trying to secure the North (via Tyrion marrying Sansa) and Highgarden (via Cersei marrying Loras) for his House. This would mean total domination by the Lannisters and having Margary married to the sadistic king would be a poor compensation for the Tyrells. Olenna even told Sansa that she thinks her son is a Oaf for wanting this alliance. She opposed it from the beginning. Olenna said, that he is riding House Tyrell down a cliff on the back of a lion. So, instead of making Margary Queen, she plans to break the Lannister grip on Kings Landing. The position of Master of Coin would only be the first step. Stopping the marriage of Cersei and Loras would be a logical next step. And perhaps Margary was so friendly to Brienne, because she is going to ask her to help Sansa flee the city (roadtrip of Sansa, the fool and Brienne to Highgarden??).

So making Sansa an accessory to murder of Joffrey was just in order to force her to flee the city and to frame Tyrion (Everyone in Kings Landing must know that Tyrion threatend Joffrey before).

^ From the PTV forum. This Unsullied is on the right track in terms of the Tyrells gaining power on the small council, although obviously that's not the primary motive. I just thought it was a unique theory regardless.

[protar]

There have been several comments on the PTV thread in the last few days questioning themselves about supporting Jaime even though it was he who threw Bran out the window.

It appears there are still people who care, including me.

The Unsullied aren't really a representative of the main viewership. Most people have probably forgotten there even was a hit on Bran. Sure, they'd remember if you jogged their memory but if not it's probably slipped most viewer's minds. Even for those who do remember and care the reveal would just be an "oh cool" reveal with no real relevance to the plot any more. I can certainly see D+D just deciding it was too much hassle to have at least 2 scenes (the wedding gifts + Tyrion voicing his suspicions) on something that is glossed over even in the books.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Sure, they'd remember if you jogged their memory but if not it's probably slipped most viewer's minds.

And there was a conveniently placed reminder of the event in this very episode when Bran saw it with his tree vision too... such a shame that sequence was wasted then.

[Mr Fixit]

I can certainly see D+D just deciding it was too much hassle to have at least 2 scenes (the wedding gifts + Tyrion voicing his suspicions) on something that is glossed over even in the books.

Unless they intend to change the person responsible. Littlefinger maybe?

I know it doesn't jive with the established distances and timetables involved, in the books at least, but who knows. And honestly, I wouldn't necessarily be against it, if the show decides on that course of action. Joffrey's involvement never really rang true, for some reason. The explanations given are not convincing enough in my view. Joffrey wants to impress his father because of some offhanded comment, he gets his hands on this particular dagger... I dunno, I never liked it.

Littlefinger, however, would be perfectly capable of devising such a sneaky plan that plays right into his long-term ambitions. Yes, he was away in KL, but the show doesn't exactly establish how much time had passed between the fall and the attempt. Could be weeks.

[protar]

I never really liked it either. It felt to me as though Martin needed the hit to happen to drive the plot forwards, but he didn't really want to make a huge deal out of revealing who it was and the ramifications of said person putting a hit on a noble boy. So he chose the culprit with the least impact on the plot and just threw the reveal out there right before killing Joffrey off and long after most readers had stopped caring.

[Mr Fixit]

So, do you think D&D will opt for Littlefinger? Or leave the issue unexplained?

[Abaddon]

The Unsullied aren't really a representative of the main viewership. Most people have probably forgotten there even was a hit on Bran. Sure, they'd remember if you jogged their memory but if not it's probably slipped most viewer's minds. Even for those who do remember and care the reveal would just be an "oh cool" reveal with no real relevance to the plot any more. I can certainly see D+D just deciding it was too much hassle to have at least 2 scenes (the wedding gifts + Tyrion voicing his suspicions) on something that is glossed over even in the books.

It's really not that big a deal, But I'm a little disappointed. I think all you'd need is Joff boasting that he's familiar with Valyrian steel when he gets Widow's Wail, like in the book. For those that really dug into the mystery of it that's probably sufficient, and it would have been one throwaway boasting line that took almost literally no time to say for anyone else.

Again, not a big deal, but I wish they had done it.

[Colonel Green]

I never really liked it either. It felt to me as though Martin needed the hit to happen to drive the plot forwards, but he didn't really want to make a huge deal out of revealing who it was and the ramifications of said person putting a hit on a noble boy. So he chose the culprit with the least impact on the plot and just threw the reveal out there right before killing Joffrey off and long after most readers had stopped caring.

I think Martin knew who it was all along, but as the books dragged on there never seemed an ideal moment or means to reveal it, so in the end he crammed the revelation in just before it would have become impossible to ever answer the question.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I think Martin knew who it was all along, but as the books dragged on there never seemed an ideal moment or means to reveal it, so in the end he crammed the revelation in just before it would have become impossible to ever answer the question.

Obviously he knew who it was all along, it's just that by the time you figure it out it's kind of hard to care since you know Joff's a monster already and so much has happened since then that it's kind of irrelevant really. I don't think the show will ever address it.

[protar]

I think Martin knew who it was all along, but as the books dragged on there never seemed an ideal moment or means to reveal it, so in the end he crammed the revelation in just before it would have become impossible to ever answer the question.

I think he knew very early on, but I definitely think he came up with Joffrey being the culprit after he'd decided that he wanted Cat to somehow think Tyrion was responsible and arrest him. And from there he worked backwards to find the easiest person he could use to set that up.

[King Zee]

what I love now about the unsullied speculations is the unconscious TV assumptions that are fueling them.

The real culprit must be found by the characters in the show.

Tyrion will be exonerated .

The Tyrells are nice so they wouldnt endanger Sansa.

Sansa saved Dontos so Dontos must be on her side.

EDIT

p.s. this really isnt a bad spec aside from thinkng Cersei would kill her son.

-there was some poisonous reaction between the wine and pie COMBINED

-the dechained Maester (Qyburn?) helped her create this two-step poison. When he said "No reaction" or whatever in ep 1 it meant that he'd succeeded in making a wine that no one was poisoned by, when they drank it ALONE

-maybe this was why Cersei said the pie had to go to the dogs in the kennel, and not to the poor starving KL people, as Margery had commanded. It's not that Cersei wanted just to spite Margery by countermanding her orders, it was that if the pie, which had some traces of poison (even though the poison wouldn't have been activated except in combination with the wine), had gotten out to a hundred people, there might have been evidence lying all over KL, and Cersei didn't want that, however small the chance that someone would have figured out that the pie was spiked.

[bobbybuilderton]

That guy who's being so adamant that it isn't obvious a gem is missing is going to have quite a bit of egg on his face.

Another picture was posted (the others seem to have been removed?) that was very high quality. It shows that the gem is missing. The removed pictures (which said guy saw) showed that the gems were not missing when she was given the necklace. Yet this guy refuses to believe it. They're so interesting sometimes.

As far as revealing who sent the assassin after Bran, they have set it up that Varys has little birds in the north. He knew Catelyn was coming to King's Landing. They could probably work it in there somehow when he frees Tyrion.

[Abaddon]

...and with great timing, related to the (missing, in the show) reveal of Joffrey as the likely culprit for setting up the attempt to kill Bran:

My main hope for all of this is that A Show resolves A Murder within a reasonable amount of episodes. One or two maybe. I don't think I can stomach a slow burn reveal like "who killed all the bastards" or "who sent the assassin to stab Bran." Come to think of it, we still don't "know" who sent the assassin. We concluded it was Joffrey as a group if memory serves.

[iheartseverus]

Which one is Tommen?

The kid you never see that isn't Rickon.

:lol:

[Dragonstoned]

Haha.

[Which Tyler]

Edited to comply with thread rules.

Or you can PMmyself or Mya Stone on these here boards

Hey guys? Please review the forum rules on Page 1:

If you've got suspicions, please take it over to PTV. This is not the place for the airing of grievances.

You can either report the post at PTV if you think it needs urgent attention, or PM us if it's more a slow-burner (eg someone being a little too accurate a little too frequently)

Holy crap, that's ridiculous. As far as I've heard, there are three.

There's 3 of us, all fully sullied; with 2 UK and 1 US time zoned; so there are times when all 3 of us are in bed (NOT together); or at work or whatever. Even then the rest of the mods at PTV will take action on any reported post if they get their first; but there's nothing we can do to stop arsewipe trolls actually posting the spoilers in the first place; just be as quick as we can be to remove them.

I'm spending as much of my time at home keeping an eye on them and try to have a look at everything; but I still have to eat, sleep, earn a living, mow the lawn etc. TBH it's already having a massive effect on the rest of my social life as I'm finding it hard to keep up with other stuff I enjoy.

ETA: beaten to it by Mya; but serves as a good reminder anyway

[PerraBaelish]

I see many persuasive arguments here. I'm convinced of it being the pie because even the craftiest murderer on the planet couldn't have foreseen exactly how the taunting and humiliating of Tyrion by Joffrey over the wine would play out.

^ From the PTV forum. They are about to find out just how crafty Littlefinger is. :lol:

[Rill Redthorn]

There's 3 of us, all fully sullied; with 2 UK and 1 US time zoned; so there are times when all 3 of us are in bed (NOT together); or at work or whatever. Even then the rest of the mods at PTV will take action on any reported post if they get their first; but there's nothing we can do to stop arsewipe trolls actually posting the spoilers in the first place; just be as quick as we can be to remove them.

I'm spending as much of my time at home keeping an eye on them and try to have a look at everything; but I still have to eat, sleep, earn a living, mow the lawn etc. TBH it's already having a massive effect on the rest of my social life as I'm finding it hard to keep up with other stuff I enjoy.

You know, I've really wondered a lot about that. It's cool that these people exist and their speculations are great to read since I get to have an idea how the show comes across to someone with zero book knowledge at all, but it depends on a massive investment of time by others to keep their protections in place.

I'm kind of reminded of Gandalf scolding Frodo (I think it was Frodo?) in LoTR about how the hobbits take their quiet life in the Shire for granted a little too much because they don't realize how much effort people like the Dunedain spend on protecting them from the nasty crap outside their borders.

What's the reason they can't have a posting place that everyone can read but only pre-approved and screened folks can post to? You'd still need a moderator to screen new posters but probably just one, and it could be done any time it was convenient for the moderator instead of having to jump on immediately when a troll sticks its ugly head up and vomits on the board. I'm a member of a mailing list that has a similar approach -- new members have their first few posts screened before releasing the post onto the list, but people with a proven track record can post freely. I figure there must be some good reason they haven't used this approach since it's so obvious. but I don't know what that reason is. Anyone care to enlighten me?