jarl the climber Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Euron's gifts are poisoned. Apparently, according to the app, Hotho Harlaw is now Lord Rodrik's heir since Harraw is Lord of Greyshield. This always made me wonder if Greysheild wasn't a better seat somehow? There was nothing to keep him from declining? Vic seemed to think Nute the Barber could. Out of the four guys that Euron named to rule the only one does not seem to be a fighter, that guy is a youngster, but he has the best blood, he is related to Harren the Black through the female line. Remember how Tywin bristled when he heard how Harrenhal had been given to Slynt? Harrenhal was the seat of Kings, you don't give that to a butchers son. So you have three guys who can fight and a young fellow who the Reach Lords might be able to stomach a marriage to. He might not be that stupid after all and the Shields might not be so poisonous as people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Euron's gifts are poisoned. Apparently, according to the app, Hotho Harlaw is now Lord Rodrik's heir since Harraw is Lord of Greyshield. I said the heir to House Harlaw, he's still that, as evidenced by Victarion's thoughs: "The Knight was the Reader's chosen heir" Hotho is now the heir to the castle Harlaw, that is correct, but he's still second in line for being the head of the House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Ooh, nice find. All things considered, it seems that marriage to Ironborn is as well thought off if not more as marriage to northerners, by people in the south (particularly in the westerlands). Though one has to say the material is rather sparse. Damnit GRRM, we need more Ironborn background!Presumably Tywin mentioned this either as a way of making Balon kneel or more likely, scaring the bejaysus out of Cersei to make her do his will.In any case point taken. The north and the ironborn are both so culturally different that i would think intra regional marriages would be more prevalent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Presumably Tywin mentioned this either as a way of making Balon kneel or more likely, scaring the bejaysus out of Cersei to make her do his will.In any case point taken. The north and the ironborn are both so culturally different that i would think intra regional marriages would be more prevalent Apart from Balon's rebellion, wouldn't a Lannister-Greyjoy marriage be of advantage for both houses? Wonder how often that actually happened. Of course there are the cultural aspects to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Apart from Balon's rebellion, wouldn't a Lannister-Greyjoy marriage be of advantage for both houses? Wonder how often that actually happened. Of course there are the cultural aspects to consider.I would think so yes. However given Tywin's great pride I would think that a marriage to maybe Lancel for example is more likely then to Jaime (when he was eligible). Marriage between the great houses doesn't seem to be hugely common as far as I recall, barring the obvious example of the modern marriages eg Tully Stark. But we do know from Ned's book that their is a history of such marriages. As far as u know a Lannister greyjoy was never mentioned possibly due to the greyjoy only recently becoming the paramount house of the Isles I think militarily such a marriage alliance would benefit the Lannisters greatly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Marriage between the great houses doesn't seem to be hugely common as far as I recall, barring the obvious example of the modern marriages eg Tully Stark. But we do know from Ned's book that their is a history of such marriages. As far as u know a Lannister greyjoy was never mentioned possibly due to the greyjoy only recently becoming the paramount house of the Isles Well, recently is a relative term. They're as "recent" as the Targaryens, after all. And I don't really see the Ironborn forging many marriage alliances before that, when they were independent and under house Hoare. As I pointed out earlier, we're told of only a handful marriages of the Ironborn, four of these being in house Greyjoy and three of those being Quellon's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well, recently is a relative term. They're as "recent" as the Targaryens, after all. And I don't really see the Ironborn forging many marriage alliances before that, when they were independent and under house Hoare. As I pointed out earlier, we're told of only a handful marriages of the Ironborn, four of these being in house Greyjoy and three of those being Quellon's. I agree, before the conquest they probably had no need for it as they ruled the Riverlands anyway. The Lannisters could be interested though to have access to a fearsome fleet in their proximity, that's why I wondered if it happened. Of course Lannisters and Greyjoys are almost polar opposites culturally, so I don't see it happen. Too bad we don't know too much about the heads of both families before Tywyn and Balon. Both of those guys seem to be hardliners though regarding their respective ways of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well, recently is a relative term. They're as "recent" as the Targaryens, after all. And I don't really see the Ironborn forging many marriage alliances before that, when they were independent and under house Hoare. As I pointed out earlier, we're told of only a handful marriages of the Ironborn, four of these being in house Greyjoy and three of those being Quellon's.Lannister had been the paramount house for thousands of years, hence why to them I would think 300 years is fairly recentAnd I agree on Hoare die to the prevalence of the old ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Lannister had been the paramount house for thousands of years, hence why to them I would think 300 years is fairly recent Well, I think that might be overestimating the weight put on "Old blood". After all, nobody refused to marry into the Targaryens (when they didn't marry their sisters), just because they'd only been in charge for some hundred years. Greyjoy rule seems to have become fairly stable after a few generations, so there's little reason to doubt they would be a future ally. Also, don't forget that the Greyjoys claim descendency from the Grey King, a legendary figure at least as important as Lann the clever. So, it's not like they're a house that just came about when House Hoare fell, they've been around, just hadn't been kings in a while (or not ever, depending if you believe the story about the Grey King). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well, I think that might be overestimating the weight put on "Old blood". After all, nobody refused to marry into the Targaryens (when they didn't marry their sisters), just because they'd only been in charge for some hundred years. Greyjoy rule seems to have become fairly stable after a few generations, so there's little reason to doubt they would be a future ally. Also, don't forget that the Greyjoys claim descendency from the Grey King, a legendary figure at least as important as Lann the clever. So, it's not like they're a house that just came about when House Hoare fell, they've been around, just hadn't been kings in a while (or not ever, depending if you believe the story about the Grey King).Well theres a bit of a difference between an ancient house of valyria, the current royal family, and the Greyjoys. Oh I think they could have been an ally but I'm not sure they ever have been. House Baratheon is quoted as being a young great house. IIRC house Greyjoy is only considered one of the great houses after the fall of the Starks and even then as a bit of a joke (joff being his usual self)http://thewertzone.blogspot.ie/2011/01/seven-kingdomsor-eight.html?m=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well theres a bit of a difference between an ancient house of valyria, the current royal family, and the Greyjoys.Oh I think they could have been an ally but I'm not sure they ever have been. House Baratheon is quoted as being a young great house. IIRC house Greyjoy is only considered one of the great houses after the fall of the Starks and even then as a bit of a joke (joff being his usual self)http://thewertzone.blogspot.ie/2011/01/seven-kingdomsor-eight.html?m=1 I'm sure that the Greyjoys were considered one of the great houses since the conquest. A great house doesn't necessarily have had it's own kingdom, see the Tullys. I would rather look at them as regional gouvernors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well theres a bit of a difference between an ancient house of valyria, the current royal family, and the Greyjoys. Oh I think they could have been an ally but I'm not sure they ever have been. House Baratheon is quoted as being a young great house. IIRC house Greyjoy is only considered one of the great houses after the fall of the Starks and even then as a bit of a joke (joff being his usual self) http://thewertzone.blogspot.ie/2011/01/seven-kingdomsor-eight.html?m=1 Uh, yeah, that blog makes no sense. When has the Riverlands ever been considered a Kingdom ? Not since the fall of house Mudd. And the Greyjoys were considered a great house ever since Aegon named Vickon Greyjoy Lord Paramount. The seven kingdoms were the first ones listed there:The Kingdom of the North - ruled from Winterfell by House Stark.The Kingdom of the Vale - ruled from the Eyrie by House Arryn.The Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers - ruled from Harrenhal by House Hoare.The Kingdom of the Rock - ruled from Casterly Rock by House Lannister.The Kingdom of the Reach - ruled from Highgarden by House Gardner.The Kingdom of the Stormlands - ruled from Storm's End by King Argilac.The Kingdom of Dorne - ruled from Sunspear by House Martell.When Aegon conquered the others, those kingdoms ceased to exist (except Dorne, technically). Nobody changed or made any new ones until people started crowning themselves during the Wo5K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'm sure that the Greyjoys were considered one of the great houses since the conquest. A great house doesn't necessarily have had it's own kingdom, see the Tullys. I would rather look at them as regional gouvernors.If you read the blog it seems they were originally considered so but demoted when Dorne entered the Iron thrones possession to keep the sacred number seven.It makes sense when you recall Joffrey quip and goblet. Also I have never not thought the Tullys anything less than a great house nor the Riverlands a Kingdom of its own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 If you read the blog it seems they were originally considered so but demoted when Dorne entered the Iron thrones possession to keep the sacred number seven. Nope. Dorne is included in that list. There's no need to demote anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The Tullys were "promoted" but the Riverlands were still never a separate kingdom. The name 7 Kingdoms refers to the original ones that existed when Aegon invaded and stuck even when the borders changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 If you read the blog it seems they were originally considered so but demoted when Dorne entered the Iron thrones possession to keep the sacred number seven.It makes sense when you recall Joffrey quip and goblet. Also I have never not thought the Tullys anything less than a great house nor the Riverlands a Kingdom of its own Nope. Dorne is included in that list. There's no need to demote anything. Actually the demotion was to include the Iron Islands in the list of Kingdoms. They weren't part of the Original Seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The Ironborn have always had a kingdom, back to before the Greyirons, when they had a salt king and rock king on every island, and a High King over those. The Greyirons then dispatched with the lesser kings, and became the Kings of the Isles. They took lands all over the west coast of Westeros, but it was always the High King of the Isles they styled themselves as. At the time of Aegon's conquest, the High King ruled both the Iron Islands and the Riverlands, but his kingdom was most definitely that of the Iron Islands. It was most definitely part of the "original" seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The blog goes on to speak of what happened after Aegon's rule and speaks of the Riverlands promotion, the Iron Isles demotion and the continuation of a different seven kingdoms citing Joffrey as evidenceThere seems to have been seven kingdoms always but not always the same seven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The blog goes on to speak of what happened after Aegon's rule and speaks of the Riverlands promotion, the Iron Isles demotion and the continuation of a different seven kingdoms citing Joffrey as evidenceThere seems to have been seven kingdoms always but not always the same seven I think that's where the blog is wrong. There where 7 kingdoms, then they got conquered. The result is 1 kingdom, containing 8 (or 9) regions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The blog goes on to speak of what happened after Aegon's rule and speaks of the Riverlands promotion, the Iron Isles demotion and the continuation of a different seven kingdoms citing Joffrey as evidence The blog speculates wildly without showing any textual references, you mean ? The "citing" of Joffrey is from the show, as it talks about him in a scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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