Dany's death!

[Ealasaid]

You know, that always has been the most umm unexpected building block of the series in my personal opinion. (I think you meant "Brandon" and not "Rickon" unless you meant Lord Rickard) In its simplest form I guess what surprises me is that Lord Rickard "fostered out" his second and not his third son to the south. Now while it was intelligent to solidify alliances by throwing Eddard to the Vale while Jon Arryn was fostering the young Lord of Storms End, in my personal opinion Eddard and more importantly the North as a whole greatly lost a major asset when Benjen Stark was allowed to "take the black" because it was "Benjen" and not Eddard that was raised in Winterfell, with Brandon and Lyanna observing Lord Rickard's ruling style. In allowing Benjen to "take the black" and "catch up on the killing" he was denied having to stay at Winterfell during the rebellion was just another sign of Eddard's wishy washyness

Yes, I did mean Rickard...the father of Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen...I don't know if that is the right order.

[Red Rex]

Yes, I did mean Rickard...the father of Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen...I don't know if that is the right order.

I believe the order was: Brandon, Lyanna, Eddard, Benjen

[Targ loyalist]

Ok tell me then what did Dany did SO MUCH heroic,all she managed to do is to sleep with Drogo,and then woke dragons(wich is magical),from that moment,she NEVER was hungry,without clothes,beaten,in any close to deat situation,always used her dragons to frighten others.And to conquring slavers bay cities,it was one of the most SELFISH acts in all books.I mean,that people lived like that for thousands of years,and boom,she appears and wants to free all slaves,because SHE thinks its right.If she is so noble why didnt she thought on the children of that slavers?What will happen to them?She is higborn herself,could she imagine herself without srvants,fine clothes and that things?For me Dany is one selfish bit'h.I hope she ll have some pain in ADWD...

As to Jon,he is something closest to real hero in books.He is not my fav,but I like him preety much.He had hard times,still had and will have,on contrary of Deny...

And to Jon and Dany together,I could bet i will not happen,they are just different types of people,and I will loose all respect if Jon falls in love with a thing like Dany

[Red Rex]

Ok tell me then what did Dany did SO MUCH heroic,all she managed to do is to sleep with Drogo,and then woke dragons(wich is magical),

she didn't go off to be a crone of Vaes Dothrak, she lead a miniscule khalashar of young boys, aged cripples into a barren waste and parlayed her every asset into huge gains

And to conquring slavers bay cities,it was one of the most SELFISH acts in all books.I mean,that people lived like that for thousands of years,and boom,she appears and wants to free all slaves,because SHE thinks its right.

lol all great men/women are selfish to one extent or another, the simple fact that she brought down a socilogical set up in place for thousands of years makes her completly remarkable

why didnt she thought on the children of that slavers?What will happen to them?

who cares? if you want to put an end to slavery you not only kill the slavers, but also the children of slavers who were brought up to believe that keeping others in bondage is their right, really killing their children was the only effective way in which she could ensure her will continued to be carried out without having to be there always.

When you're "at war" you dont only kill the soldier with the gun, you kill his wife who'd feed him, the son who'd come to his aide, the daughter who'd clothe him and everyone else who'd make his life anything but absolutely miserable.

[Targ loyalist]

who cares? if you want to put an end to slavery you not only kill the slavers, but also the children of slavers who were brought up to believe that keeping others in bondage is their right, really killing their children was the only effective way in which she could ensure her will continued to be carried out without having to be there always.

When you're "at war" you dont only kill the soldier with the gun, you kill his wife who'd feed him, the son who'd come to his aide, the daughter who'd clothe him and everyone else who'd make his life anything but absolutely miserable.

Ok,this is how Tywin Lannister thinks.It IS right,and I agree on that with you,BUT Dany thinks that she is hero-reminds me when Tywin is talking with Tyrion and he said that Robert tought of himslef as a hero,but heroes dont kill children-so Dany is then lying herslef,she is not a hero,heros dont kill children

And another thing I hate with Dany is-that the only thing that saves her are her dragons,I mean even Hot Pie with dragons could be king of Westeros,Dany without dragons,she is just one exotic good looking girl,probably finishing in some brothel in free cities.

[Red Rex]

Ok,this is how Tywin Lannister thinks.It IS right,and I agree on that with you,BUT Dany thinks that she is hero-reminds me when Tywin is talking with Tyrion and he said that Robert tought of himslef as a hero,but heroes dont kill children-so Dany is then lying herslef,she is not a hero,heros dont kill children

And another thing I hate with Dany is-that the only thing that saves her are her dragons,I mean even Hot Pie with dragons could be king of Westeros,Dany without dragons,she is just one exotic good looking girl,probably finishing in some brothel in free cities.

you see you can't take Roberts notion of being a hero and apply it to Dany and believe it contradicts her self image as a heroine, the simple fact is hero's DO kill children, those who stop short of commiting such ruthless actsws find themselves relegated to the role of nobly intentioned tragic figures...

Look I get that you dislike because she's the one who you see as just "popping up" with dragons to protect her, BUT if you really take a hard look at history, you'll realize some people have just been "divinely favored" above all others, so I just don't find this unrealistic. And I must dispute the "Hotpie" reference, Dany's remarkable beauty isn't her primary characteristic (she's not the same as Aerion Brightfire's bastardized grand daughter whoring in Braavos) and I know alot of people find Dany reminding herself that she's "the blood of the Dragon" distastful, but is in fact the truth, and what sets her above the rest of those surrounding her, as well as giving her a deeper well of endurance on which she can draw upon. Let's just be serious for a second shall we, Hotpie never could have learn Old Valyrian, he's such a whinny little coward that the dragons would likely have eaten him once they could cook their own food. Dany being a "pawn of prophecy" undoubtedly gives her a "leg up" on the competition, but look at the time line in reverse (in a projection if you will) whatever it is Dany inately possesses is the true reason that the Gods blessed her with the ability to rebirth dragons as opposed to Egg and Rhaegar and Aerion and all the other dead Targaryens who have tried to do so in the past. For whatever reasons her life path uniquely suits her for not only being the one to not only be the one to bring back dragons, but whose situation dictates they'll be used in a manner in which the Gods intend as well as being alive in a time in which "dragons" are neccessary to be emplyed "against the others".

View this whole sequence of events from another angle, by Dany needing to rebirth dragons "outside of westeros" it shows that if Rhaegar had prophetic abilities (as it's clear Daeron brother of Egg and that Princess in Valyria had) than those songs of tragedy he sung to the court truly were about him and his family. It could very well be that Rhaegar's entire life was lived only so that Dany had a great brother whom she'd both emulate and strive to exceed. Let's say Rhaegar had been the one to bring back dragons, would they have been employed at his mad fathers whim? What purpose would they have served in a westeros NOT under threat by "the others"? It's not only that Dany is "a" Targaryen, in fact Dany is "the" Targaryen to come around since Aegon I himself.

When you really take a critical look at things, you'll observe a few things that might have immediately escaped your notice. While it IS a forgone conclusion that Dany will re-emerge as the Targaryen presence of Westeros, that she'll be finding a fragmented and easily conquerable realm awaiting her, and she WILL wind up sitting the iron throne, there's absolutely NO guaruntee she'll live to a ripe old age, that she'll ever find true love (or atleast again) that she'll ever bare children, such simple things, such unremarkable pleasantries that so many people take for granted are really rather improbable for Dany to ever have a chance to experience. The bottom line is, it's all together probable that Dany never knew her mother and father, Rhaegar, her son and lost a husband ALL so that she'd be driven to a point where she'd cast herself into the flames and bring back dragons into the world when they are most needed. Is Dany powerful, oh hell yes, will Dany be remembered long after she dies, without a doubt, will she ever be happy? Satisfied is more likely, the ironic truth is that those who achieve a supreme level of authority become servants to their ambition and their greatest accomplishments often leave them forever frustrated by any little thing that they can alter to their satisfaction. Dany might very well set loose her dragons to kill indescriminantly, but one so favored by fate, once solidified in a position to rule, will be forever seeking a way to improve the lives of her subjects, nothing will ever work well enough, there will never be enough she can do to universally improve the lots of everyone who is subject to her rule and in the end death will seem like some ironic form of defeat because it will curtail her ability to give more to those who've been loyal to her... In the end true greatness only exists in those who are never ceasing in their pursuit to make all those they love as happy as they WANT them to be... A great ruler grades themselves on the happiness of each and everyone of their subjects, and if they've exausted every avenue by which they can make their lives even just a little better, it's something Viserys, Aerys and so many others never understood, but Rhaegar did and Dany does as well

[Targ loyalist]

Preety long post but ok...The main reeason I dislike Dany is because she is the ONLY PoV in series that from the first book where she is in not SO good situatuion thtough the second book and culminating in the third she is going better and better.On the end she is queeb in a great and rich city,sorounded with the most loyal army on planet,with great protectors(aka Barristan) and with 3 dragons.When you take a look,none of the other characters had so much luck...but oh well,I think the things are gonna be a little bore tough for her in ADWD...you can check my post in R+L=J topic,about amybe future events in ADWD...

[Enguerrand]

When you're "at war" you dont only kill the soldier with the gun, you kill his wife who'd feed him, the son who'd come to his aide, the daughter who'd clothe him and everyone else who'd make his life anything but absolutely miserable.

I think Terry Goodkind’s “Sword of Truth†series could be something for you.

And another thing I hate with Dany is-that the only thing that saves her are her dragons,I mean even Hot Pie with dragons could be king of Westeros,Dany without dragons,she is just one exotic good looking girl,probably finishing in some brothel in free cities.

Except of course that she is routinely trounce her enemies without her dragons.

[morgoth]

Now maybe someone can explain this to me, because in ALL SERIOUSNESS I don't understand how/why it's any different than "pussy" or vagina" - except that ever since the family guy skit with, "vagina junction it's your function taking in sperm and spitting out babies" I not been able to hear the word and keep a straight face - but when referring to Cersi I do use the word "cunt" simply because it begins with a c, and so does cersi's name, along that train of thought I'd be inclined to say "Parcilla's pussy" i just like the repition of 1st letters in words, I dont see any difference in using cunt instead of the other two but this has gotten me in trouble in the past, so does it mean something different than I've recognized, or is it just a lot to do about nothing?

Robb's motivation of sending Cat as an envoy was his desire to get a "free hand to rule" which he couldnt have with Cat present, it just reafirms Robb was doomed the instant nay the second he allowed Cat to refuse him.

wow Rex...that's quite a thought process.

COnjunction junction, what's your function? GOt any more school house rock songs?

"I'm just a bill, yes I'm only a bill and I'm sitting here on Capital Hill"

Personally, I don't use that word. Not because it's 'oh, so offensive!' I just don't like the way that it sounds. To me, I don't get the same effect using that term in lieu of others (which I do use).

It's really MUCH ado about zilch.

I see that Red Rex is back to his old tricks. I'm glad you haven't changed since I've been away from the ASOIAF boards.

[Red Rex]

I think Terry Goodkind’s “Sword of Truth†series could be something for you.

I'm a big fan of that series to, just like Martin 10x more, but yeah in the most recent chapter Richard orders what I've been clamoring for him to do since Naked Empire

[morgoth]

If you end up getting exposed to more of Rex's posts, you will realize that he drops the C-word at the slightest opportunity. He seems to have some weird fixation on Cersei Lannister's womanly parts. It's like watching a kid discover bad words for the first time and flinging them around gleefully.

That was funny, Dante. Are you and Rex going to play nice? What a dumb question that was...OF COURSE NOT!

[Red Rex]

wow Rex...that's quite a thought process.

Morgoth, glad to hear from you, and yes it IS quite the thought process isn't it

I see that Red Rex is back to his old tricks. I'm glad you haven't changed since I've been away from the ASOIAF boards.

Morgoth, sorry I didn't notice you were away from the ASOIAF boards as I was up until a day or two ago away for a bit as well... in all honesty I've actually gotten in trouble for using that term and I just don't get what the big deal is, and when you get right down to it, I DO think of Cersi as a dirty cunt rag, C-C seems good to me, and is rather descriptive as well, "Cersi's Cunt" just has a nice ring to it I feel

Morgoth, glad to hear from you, and yes it IS quite the thought process isn't it

Morgoth, sorry I didn't notice you were away from the ASOIAF boards as I was up until a day or two ago away for a bit as well... in all honesty I've actually gotten in trouble for using that term and I just don't get what the big deal is, and when you get right down to it, I DO think of Cersi as a dirty cunt rag, C-C seems good to me, and is rather descriptive as well, "Cersi's Cunt" just has a nice ring to it I feel

Morgoth, in all honesty I really enjoyed Dante's summation, and it's not exactly innacurate, seeing as in 3rd grade when our teacher made up the "class rules" there was no express prohibition against cursing so in truth I'd DID fling around every new curse word I learned gleefully

but lets stay on the subject matter at hand and not degrade this board with nonsensical in fighting

she is queeb in a great and rich city,sorounded with the most loyal army on planet,with great protectors(aka Barristan) and with 3 dragons.When you take a look,none of the other characters had so much luck

yeah but consider if you will that Viserys couldnt have achieved any of what Dany HAS he's a most telling counter-point to Dany's ascendancy, he was a man not to be taken seriously, and in all truth deserved to be treated rather contemptuously... and also realize Barristan came to Dany because Joff was such a fool to discard him. Dany in truth is capitalizing on other peoples (her enemies) poor decisions

[morgoth]

Morgoth, in all honesty I really enjoyed Dante's summation, and it's not exactly innacurate, seeing as in 3rd grade when our teacher made up the "class rules" there was no express prohibition against cursing so in truth I'd DID fling around every new curse word I learned gleefully

Good to read your posts again.

[Red Rex]

Good to read your posts again.

happy to oblige

[A wilding]

Teasing a few threads out of this:

but "Jaime" has more intangibles of being a "fine ruler" that Eddard truly lacks. If Eddard were to just "sit on his ass" in the north, he'd have been "abandoning a friend in need" but wasn't that his 1st inclination?

True, but interestingly may people have argued that this was exactly what he should have done, and blame Catelyn for advising him against staying.

Couldn't it be said that Cat's abduction of Tyrion was in large part founded in her "misunderstanding" of her position? Along with being an "overly controlling mother" akin to Cersei Lannister, Cat doesn't realize there's a difference between being a Lord and being the Lords "Lady". Cat took "independent initiative"

Firstly, the "misunderstanding" on Catelyn's part is down to the fact that Ned explicitly left her in charge, to rule the North as his Regent while he was in Kings Landing. Ned considered Robb a child, unfit as yet to rule, and explicitly gave Catelyn authority over him.

Comparing Cersei and Catelyn as mothers, the total contrast between them is obvious. Cersei rules in her children's name, keeping them entirely out of the loop. Catelyn attempts to grow Robb into his role. Near the end of AGoT, Robb accepts her authority over him, but she makes the decision to effectively retire his favour, reserving only the right to continue to counsel him in order to help him get used to the role and to try to prevent him making any serious mistakes.

No you're missing the point, Edmure witnessed Robb tell Cat he wanted Cat to return to Winterfell, BUT Cat dismissed his desire and stuck to acting on her own prerogative. It was this impungment on Robb's will that gave Edmure the notion that he could act without express consent of Robb and take his own initiative

Well sorry if I missed the point here, it was probably down to being unable to see it. Firstly we really don't know what went on between Robb and Edmure so it is difficult to reach any conclusions about this. I am inclined to fault Robb for not fully informing Edmure of his plans. Any high lord (if an acting one in Edmure's case) is always going to act on his own initiative for the best interests of his house as he sees it. The main point though as that by then Robb had grown into his role to the extent that he was prepared to command if he felt it important, for example in the matter of sending Theon back to his father and ordering Catelyn to head the embassy to Renly.

Don't use Joff or Tommen as examples of "successful kings with overbearing mothers" because in truth it IS their mother whose both directly and indirectly responsible for sowing the seeds of their destruction

I was, of course, merely pointing out that they illustrate that Westeros does not consider kings who are still children to be capable of ruling in their own right.

That is just another reason I continue to call Cersei a manipulative "cunt"

Yes, but would you call, say Gregor Clegane, Viserys, or Vargo Hoat an "<adjective of your choice> prick" (or some alternative word for it)? Because if not, there is a hint of sexism there.

[Ealasaid]

Yes, but would you call, say Gregor Clegane, Viserys, or Vargo Hoat an "<adjective of your choice> prick" (or some alternative word for it)? Because if not, there is a hint of sexism there.

Agreed. Thanks.

Red Rex. It's an ugly word. I don't know one woman who likes the word. It is always used in an angry demeaning way. And further, I have seen men who, when finally called "a cunt," after other slurs at their manhood have been bandied about, become completely unhinged and end up getting arrested for and charged with assault after they have pummelled the man who called them a cunt.

Yes. It's just a word. And I don't react to any one but that - and my reaction is usually to rethink my relationship with that person. Of course, you and I have no relationship. And I expect you'll toss it out there to annoy me. Toss away.

[Red Rex]

Firstly, the "misunderstanding" on Catelyn's part is down to the fact that Ned explicitly left her in charge, to rule the North as his Regent while he was in Kings Landing. Ned considered Robb a child, unfit as yet to rule, and explicitly gave Catelyn authority over him.

I'll admit that there might very well be more to this particular bit of information than I've fully considered, HOWEVER once Ned is beheaded and Robb is crowned "King of the North" Cat needs to accept the drastic realignment and back the fuck up to Winterfell

[Red Rex]

Firstly we really don't know what went on between Robb and Edmure so it is difficult to reach any conclusions about this. I am inclined to fault Robb for not fully informing Edmure of his plans. Any high lord (if an acting one in Edmure's case) is always going to act on his own initiative for the best interests of his house as he sees it.

Robb had no obligation to inform Edmure fully of his plans, it was not Robb's obligation to do so, and not only would Robb be placing himself at a disadvantage should Edmure be captured with knowledge of Robb's scheme committing to one course of action would have been disadvantageous to Robb's ability to sieze upon advantageous oppurtunities. No, not ALL high lords succomb to acting on their own initiative when they are aware that the displeasure of their over lord will result in their deaths and the dishonor to their house...

Robb had grown into his role to the extent that he was prepared to command if he felt it important, for example in the matter of sending Theon back to his father and ordering Catelyn to head the embassy to Renly.

Robb only sent Cat as emmissary to Renly because she refused to return to Winterfell, but your absolutly correct that sending Theon to Pyke was a collosal blunder, but he blocked out Cats good counsel because she'd been over riding his will rather consistently up until that point

Yes, but would you call, say Gregor Clegane, Viserys, or Vargo Hoat an "<adjective of your choice> prick" (or some alternative word for it)? Because if not, there is a hint of sexism there.

yeah, I'd call each of them a prick, and Viserys a "pathetic prick"

Red Rex. It's an ugly word. I don't know one woman who likes the word. It is always used in an angry demeaning way. And further, I have seen men who, when finally called "a cunt," after other slurs at their manhood have been bandied about, become completely unhinged and end up getting arrested for and charged with assault after they have pummelled the man who called them a cunt.

well the trick to not getting "arrested for assault" if called a cunt is spitting in the "cunt callers" face so "cunt caller" takes the 1st swing, then pummeling the guy into a bloody pulp is considered self defense, and the extremity of the extent of the beating can be explained away by psycological tendancies... just in case you were wondering how to get away with something like that...

Yes. It's just a word. And I don't react to any one but that - and my reaction is usually to rethink my relationship with that person. Of course, you and I have no relationship. And I expect you'll toss it out there to annoy me. Toss away.

hmmm.... it's true we have no relationship, and it is further more true that I've never been one to alter my actions simply to avoid agitating anyone BUT I dislike the notion that you'd think I used the term specifically to annoy you... I don't recall you ever going out of your way to annoy me, so it would hardly seem justifiable for me to do so to you without any prior provocation... so with the exception of calling Cersi cuntish, I'll do my best to restrain my "bad language" so I curtail the extent to which I limit your enjoyment on this board, fair enough?

[oba]

I believe the order was: Brandon, Lyanna, Eddard, Benjen

Ned was older than Lyanna. She was 16 when she died and Ned was already 18 by the time of the Harrenhal tourney.

Re: Edmure's blunder at Oxcross

I've always cut Edmure some slack for this. It never occurred to me until Robb chewed him out in ASoS just what an error it was. That's one of the risks Robb took in not informting Edmure of his plans.

Firstly, the "misunderstanding" on Catelyn's part is down to the fact that Ned explicitly left her in charge, to rule the North as his Regent while he was in Kings Landing. Ned considered Robb a child, unfit as yet to rule, and explicitly gave Catelyn authority over him.

Yes, a lot of people forget or willfully ignore this aspect of things. Catelyn decides not to undermine Robb because she doesn't want his future bannermen to see his mom send him scurrying back to Winterfell. Cat's not perfect, but I can't see why some try to cast her as an overbearing mother.

. . .and also realize Barristan came to Dany because Joff was such a fool to discard him. Dany in truth is capitalizing on other peoples (her enemies) poor decisions/

Barristan says (and I see no reason not to take him at his word) that a major reason he didn't reveal his identity to Dany was because he was taking his time to see what kind of person/leader she was. I think it would have taken Barristan all of 5 minutes to see what kind of man Viserys was.

Dany's had some good fortune. She's also "created" a lot of her good fortune, as well.

[Red Rex]

but I can't see why some try to cast her as an overbearing mother.

because she takes liberties she's not entitled to...

Dany's had some good fortune. She's also "created" a lot of her good fortune, as well.

I've been saying that from day 1