What do you think of this argument that I found for why Dany isn't a good ruler?

[El Guapo]

Just thought I would throw this in, from a recent Rolling Stones interview with GRRM posted online yesterday (http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423)

This is actually why I love Danerys story in Mereen. I love the fact that she is struggling to rule. To me it would have been so boring and unrealistic if she made all these great decisions and everyone is happy, etc, etc. She is a 15 year old monarch she should be in over a little head when she starts to rule. It makes it a far more interesting story atleast to me.

[Frey Pentos]

This is actually why I love Danerys story in Mereen. I love the fact that she is struggling to rule. To me it would have been so boring and unrealistic if she made all these great decisions and everyone is happy, etc, etc. She is a 15 year old monarch she should be in over a little head when she starts to rule. It makes it a far more interesting story atleast to me.

Totally agree. One of the more complex and fascinating plot-lines in the whole series.

[Drake Heath]

Dany's hardly a revolutionary.

She worships gods that forbid slavery, she claims to be from a land that forbids slavery, she grew up in Braavos; a place that forbids slavery, she goes to the Slaver's Bay and institutes a monarchy because in addition to her claiming to be the rightful monarch of another country, it's the government type she's always known and is most familiar with..

It's like an American overthrowing the government in a foreign country and instituting an American style republic with common law and Christian values, it's not revolutionary, it's them enforcing their people's values on other people because it's what they believe is best.

[To catch a Lannister]

She marries a harpy and tries to bring stability and peace to Meereen that way. Huge mistake imo. Instead of marrying into the political elite she should just kill them all and replace them with a Governor or Council of her choosing.

Yeah I agree if you're going to full on overthrow the entrenched regime might as well fundamentally alter the entire system. Marrying into the existing ruling social class isn't particularly revolutionary

[AdelinaZ]

This is actually why I love Danerys story in Mereen. I love the fact that she is struggling to rule. To me it would have been so boring and unrealistic if she made all these great decisions and everyone is happy, etc, etc. She is a 15 year old monarch she should be in over a little head when she starts to rule. It makes it a far more interesting story atleast to me.

Same for me. I really like her character precisely because she is grey and screws up. She's interesting and quite realistic, IMO.

[Stormland's Fury]

Yeah I agree if you're going to full on overthrow the entrenched regime might as well fundamentally alter the entire system. Marrying into the existing ruling social class isn't particularly revolutionary

It's like an American overthrowing the government in a foreign country and instituting an American style republic with common law and Christian values, it's not revolutionary, it's them enforcing their people's values on other people because it's what they believe is best.

I think those things go hand in hand, as she overthrew the system in the only way she knew how, by Westerosi standards, like subduing by force, marrying for political reasons and establishing a monarchy.

She may have revolutionary thoughts, but doesn't have the means to express or implement them accordingly.

[To catch a Lannister]

I think those things go hand in hand, as she overthrew the system in the only way she knew how, by Westerosi standards, like subduing by force, marrying for political reasons and establishing a monarchy.

All I'm saying is she should have gone full founding fathers, tri-corner hats, fifes, Dolly Madison, the works.

[Stormland's Fury]

All I'm saying is she should have gone full founding fathers, tri-corner hats, fifes, Dolly Madison, the works.

Hey, has even has her own Arnold Benedict in Jorah Mormont, so why not.

Crawled also through a lot of shit.

[Drake Heath]

I think those things go hand in hand, as she overthrew the system in the only way she knew how, by Westerosi standards, like subduing by force, marrying for political reasons and establishing a monarchy.

She may have revolutionary thoughts, but doesn't have the means to express or implement them accordingly.

What are her revolutionary thoughts? Banning slavery? It's been a while since I've read a Dany chapter.

Really, she could be the most reactionary person in the books, because she wants to restore the Targaryen dynasty to the throne.

Now, don't get me wrong, there's nothing bad with being a reactionary, I just never saw anything she did as particularly revolutionary because it all fits in line relatively well with her people's long established point of view.

She cares for the people, yes, but that's nothing new, not even in ASoIaF.

[Rippounet]

If anything she was replacing a malevolent oligarchy with a benevolent monarchy, but still doesn't change the fact that it is indeed an authoritarian rule.

Absolutely. For fun's sake, we can imagine her becoming a kind of "enlightened" monarch if she listens to the right people, and even trying to start a a form of parliamentary monarchy at some point, but I highly doubt that GRRM wants to go far in the political direction.

I still think that one shouldn't see too much in the political dimensions of Dany's character. So far she hasn't done anything going further than what is already basic Westerosi law and custom. The Mereneese arch (/knot) serves only to highlight the fact that conquering power and holding power are two different things. Also, it will probably explain some of her later decisions once she really sets her sights on the Iron Throne. She's already asked Missandei what she's supposed to do with her armies after her conquest of Westeros, so she's aware that dealing with the aftermath of war will prove a challenge. In other words, she knows she will need the support of the great Houses to hold the Iron Throne, and will act accordingly. This means using diplomacy rather than force when eventually being in Westeros. She will most likely use her advisers (maybe Tyrion) to form alliances and avoid unnecessary battles.

A question worth asking is how she will reconcile the need to form lasting alliances with the great Houses and the poor reputation of some of her advisers/allies. Barristan is well respected, but is old, and might not even reach Westeros. Tyrion is a kinslayer and widely despised by most people. Jorah was exiled for slavery and may not be the ideal friend. If she becomes a spiritual leader for the Red Priests, that may not go down well with the Faith and the High Septon. Both Dothraki and Unsullied are not likely to be welcome in Westeros, not to mention the Sellswords. Even her dragons are as likely to elicit fear as loyalty.

In short, she needs allies in Westeros if she wants to avoid repeating the mistakes of Mereen. That won't be easy. Ideally I can she her finding an important support in Sansa and the Starks, but she's likely to have problems with the Martells (if they support Ageon) and the surviving Lannisters (because of Tyrion).

Unless of course, everything is so screwed up by the time she reaches Westeros (because of winter and/or the Others, of Aegon's wars, of Cersei and the Tyrells... etc), that everyone will see her as a savior and ignore the rest. It's hard to predict anything at this point, because the situation in Westeros is evolving fast. But there is no doubt a parallel between her ruling Mereen and her ruling Westeros.

I just don't see how she (/GRRM) will resolve the "Westerosi" knot. There's just no way to do it without some major event to simplify things, and only TWoW will tell us what this major event will be. The fall of the Wall (even if is metaphorical) and the invasion of Others is the most likely imho.

[Stormland's Fury]

What are her revolutionary thoughts? Banning slavery? It's been a while since I've read a Dany chapter.

Really, she could be the most reactionary person in the books, because she wants to restore the Targaryen dynasty to the throne.

Now, don't get me wrong, there's nothing bad with being a reactionary, I just never saw anything she did as particularly revolutionary because it all fits in line relatively well with her people's point of view.

Or let me rephrase it, she might have a subconscious urge in freeing the slaves, which could be seen as revolutionary (as in social alteration), although without having an understanding of the implications.

I agree that freeing slaves alone is in no way revolutionary or enough to call her that, especially since she doesn't seem to see herself like that either.

[Rippounet]

[Drake Heath]

Or let me rephrase, she might have a subconcious urge in freeing the slaves, which could be seen as revolutionary (as in social alteration), although without having an understanding of the implications.

I guess from a purely "revolution equals social change" stand point, but I usually equivocate revolutionaries who go against the fold of their own people's ideas and values.

Her feeling sorry for the slaves and wanting to free them isn't revolutionary, it's just empathy (empathy reinforced by her cultural values and religion), which isn't really new, even in ASoIaF.

If she were a Ghiscari, or grew up there with slaves I'd be more inclined to say she was a revolutionary.

[Stormland's Fury]

I just don't see how she (/GRRM) will resolve the "Westerosi" knot. There's just no way to do it without some major event to simplify things, and only TWoW will tell us what this major event will be. The fall of the Wall (even if is metaphorical) and the invasion of Others is the most likely imho.

I really enjoy GRRM's world building the most in the series and it's clear he enjoys writing it. Which is the problem.

Sometimes his world building gets in the way of plot building and he writes himself in several corners. It's still impressive what he achieved considering the size of his work but sometimes getting informed of every minute detail of events like the Kingsmoot get too much, the plot has to advance and while I enjoy reading about all those details they don't really further anything.

That's also the reason why we have Mereenese and Westerosi knots, just the former is more obvious since we basically are limited to one location.

[Stormland's Fury]

I guess from a purely "revolution equals social change" stand point, but I usually equivocate revolutionaries who go against the fold of their own people's ideas and values.

Her feeling sorry for the slaves and wanting to free them isn't revolutionary, it's just empathy (empathy reinforced by her cultural values and religion), which isn't really new, even in ASoIaF.

If she were a Ghiscari, or grew up there with slaves I'd be more inclined to say she was a revolutionary.

Ok, now I get what you mean and yeah I have to wholeheartedly agree.

[Drake Heath]

I really enjoy GRRM's world building the most in the series and it's clear he enjoys writing it. Which is the problem.

Sometimes he's world building gets in the way of plot building and he writes himself in several corners. It's still impressive what he achieved considering the size of his work but sometimes getting informed of every minute detail of events like the Kingsmoot get too much, the plot has to advance and while I enjoy reading about all those details they don't really further anything.

That's also the reason why we have Mereenese and Westerosi knots, just the former is more obvious since we basically are limited to one location.

He needs to learn how to set stuff aside for encyclopedias like A World of Ice and Fire.

Maybe with that he can, erm, get a release on his world building urge.

[Stormland's Fury]

He needs to learn how to set stuff aside for encyclopedias like A World of Ice and Fire.

Maybe when that's released he can, erm, get a release on his world building urge.

Yeah, I really want to see even the most mundane detail in A World of Ice and Fire, but want to get as much of actual plot as possible out of the two final books.

One could also blame the editor as it's their job to tell him that he needs to trim some stuff.

[marsyao]

I always wonder why not let Danny married Aegon and be done with it? Their house allows brother marry sister, so marry a nephew to a younger aunt should not be a problme

[El Guapo]

I always wonder why not let Danny married Aegon and be done with it? Their house allows brother marry sister, so marry a nephew to a younger aunt should not be a problme

Well she does have another nephew.

[Drake Heath]

Yeah, I really want to see even the most mundane detail in A World of Ice and Fire, but want to get as much of actual plot as possible out of the two final books.

One could also blame the editor as it's their job to tell him that he needs to trim some stuff.

They probably do, and the stuff we get is the most trimmed down he would allow.

I have a feeling on GRRM's harddrive there are gigabytes of all the most trivial information about the world he wasn't allowed to put in the books.