Season Five Casting

[protar]

The point is that Quentyn is part of the Dorne storyline. In the premiere we will barely be introduced to this storyline and this is the first time Quentyn appears. Non readers will not connect the dots and understand who Quentyn is and what's the point of his appearance, certainly not as much as they would if it came after Doran reveals his plans. But you know what, this is all opinions so let's leave it behind.

Sure they would. Just have Arianne talk about Quentyn being off on a secret mission and then cut straight to him in Meereen saying "hi I'm Quentyn." I mean we didn't wait half way through season 2 to introduce Stannis. Viewers will understand Quent's importance.

What isn't an opinion is how much the Battle of Meereen will screw up season 5. I understand how good and fulfilling it is on paper to get all of that arc wrapped up in season 5, but it creates so many issues. Either you rushing Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion and Dany's arcs or you devote so much time to them that you end up rushing everything else. Meereen isn't the only storyline of season 5. We have a lot to do in King's Landing and in the North and many separate storylines as well (Arya, Jamie and all the others). There is not enough time to fit it all nicely into 10 episodes- either the battle of Meereen happens in season 6 and other storylines (like the North and Winterfell) take center stage like IMO they should, or we get a shit ton of Meereen and everything else is rushing. I can just see the butchery of Jon and Stannis and Theon's arcs. I can see important characters disappearing all over the place. How will Cersei get to the Walk of Shame with the battle of Meereen in season 5? How will Jon gets stabbed? How will Stannis go on a badass mission to fight "Yara" and end up outside Winterfell? How will Jamie defeat Riverrun with words? How will Arya become an assassin?

I disagree that there isn't enough time. A decent portion of the set up for Dany's arc in S5 has already been set up in S4, Quentyn won't have his own arc in the show he'll just be in Meereen and the Kingsmoot is probably being downsized if they don't just have Euron straight up declaring himself king. Victarion can be sent off to Dany within the first 3-5 episodes. The only "problem" is Tyrion's arc and I don't think it's as problematic as you'd think. Tyrion can appear in eight, nine or even all ten episodes and turn up at Meereen in E8 or 9. His arc becomes a lot easier once you give up on him being present at Daznak's pit (A rather pointless bit of teasing from Martin anyway.). Remember that stuff can be cut and condensed. If we get a whole episode on The Battle of Fire (and we almost certainly will) Tyrion can escape slavery and join up with sellswords all in just one episode, with an impromptu sign up rather than the drawn out affair in the books.

There is no time to do all of that in 10 episodes, forget it. You have to choose: which storyline would you rather butcher? I choose Meereen. Delay the battle, end with the Daznak Pit. It's still an awesome, blood pumping ending even if it offers no resolution.

Again, we don't need to choose which story to butcher. With judicious cutting here and there there is no need. Despite appearances S5 actually promises to be pretty concise. We have a lot of plot lines but some can be done in a small amount of episodes whereas others can be the main focus:

Large Plot lines:

• Kings Landing
• The Wall
• Dorne
• Meereen
• Winterfell
• Braavos
• Tyrion's Journey

Small Plot Lines:

• Iron Isles
• The Vale
• Jaime's quest
• Davos
• Faegon's conquest
• Bran

Some of those latter plot lines can be done in just a few episodes - namely Faegon after parting ways with Tyrion. There's also a lot of interconnectivity between plots e.g all the northern plots, everyone heading towards Dany.

[protar]

And what's wrong with that? He's a plot device anyway. The unsullied would think that he's going to be a major character because we just spent half the season with his family, and then it'll be a shock when he suddenly dies.

There's a difference between a plot device who you can at least appreciate was integrated into the setting and properly fleshed out, and then there's completely shameless and poorly written plot device. Having Quentyn in just a few episodes would be awful, and it would also ruin the awesomeness of Doran's reveal - and isn't that the only reason you're trying to twist Dorne and Meereen to slot together?

[protar]

I don't see what's wrong with the Daznak Pit ending Meereen in season 5. Yes, Dany still far from Westeros, but only three or four episodes away from where she'd be if it was in. If you get some Meereen intrigue throughout the season and end with that bang (along with Tyrion, Quentyn and Vic slowly converging in Meereen) it perfectly sets up the rest of the story and allows everyone else the screentime to have good arcs. Quentyn gets fiveish episodes, Dorne takes more time, Stannis gets the battle of Winterfell (so it won't lack in action)...

Is there any particular reason to include the Battle of Meereen in season 5 other than "Dany gets boring and we need to speed it up"?

EDIT: I'm not sure what D&D's opinions are on this front... There is a big chance that the battle is in, but who knows...

That's a pretty good reason if you ask me. Ending the season with Dany going off on some whacky solo adventure again would be testing the Unsullied audiences a bit much. It would suck for much the same reason that postponing it sucked in the books: A lot of time was spent building up to Dany finally meeting people and getting to Westeros so putting it off for another year (or few years in our case) is very frustrating.

[SerArthurHeath]

And you don't think that's considerably more than the main plot lines in every season so far? This season has, what, KL, The Wall, Stannis, Arya, Sansa, minor bits for Brienne and Theon if we are saying Stannis, Arya and Sansa are even major ones?

[jentario]

Protar... That is a lot of storylines. A LOT more than in season 4. Also, a bunch of them splinter (Winterfell= Stannis, Theon for instance). If you spend a whole episode on the battle you are left with 9 episodes to wrap everything up. In these 9 episodes, we get a hell of a lot of Meereen: the Daznak Pit and the lead up to it (assuming all Meereen intrigue gets cut in this scenario), the Barristan coup and the Quebtyn coup, Dany and the Dothraki, Tyrion getting around the world in 8 episodes (pun intended) and potentially Vic as well. It wouldn't be far off to assume that a good third of these episodes will feature Meereen in some level. So you get six episodes' worth of non-Meereen material. Which is a problem...

[Onna Lewyys]

There's a difference between a plot device who you can at least appreciate was integrated into the setting and properly fleshed out, and then there's completely shameless and poorly written plot device. Having Quentyn in just a few episodes would be awful, and it would also ruin the awesomeness of Doran's reveal - and isn't that the only reason you're trying to twist Dorne and Meereen to slot together?

It's because the entire point of the Dorne plot is for us to think that Doran is loyal to the Lannisters but then is revealed to be playing a long con. Otherwise Martin would've put us in Doran's head from the get-go. So it completely undermines the story if Quentyn shows up in Meereen too early.

[protar]

Protar... That is a lot of storylines. A LOT more than in season 4. Also, a bunch of them splinter (Winterfell= Stannis, Theon for instance). If you spend a whole episode on the battle you are left with 9 episodes to wrap everything up. In these 9 episodes, we get a hell of a lot of Meereen: the Daznak Pit and the lead up to it (assuming all Meereen intrigue gets cut in this scenario), the Barristan coup and the Quebtyn coup, Dany and the Dothraki, Tyrion getting around the world in 8 episodes (pun intended) and potentially Vic as well. It wouldn't be far off to assume that a good third of these episodes will feature Meereen in some level. So you get six episodes' worth of non-Meereen material. Which is a problem...

It's a lot of plot lines, but most of the season will be divided between the four main plot lines - Kings Landing, Meereen, The North and Dorne. Plus they'll be tied together a lot. The North is made up of various plot lines, but save for Bran BtW they all fit together very well. It's essentially KL but spread over a larger geographical distance. In fact I would be tempted to call all of the North one plot line in essence. So we have:

• The big 4 (In order of screen time.): The North, Meereen, Kings Landing, Dorne. KL is basically Cersei's solo adventure now so there can be a lot less time spent here, with other areas taking on the role of political intrigue location.

Tyrion's travels. In almost every (or every) episode, but with not much time spent on it in each individual episode.

Braavos: Tying together Sam and Arya's arc beyond the brief bump into in the books.

Iron Isles: Can take up a few episodes in the first half of the season. Then Vic can appear in Meereen late season.

Jaime: Can fill up the second half of the season only.

Sansa/Bran: Spread sparsely throughout the season. Only 3-5 episodes each.

Joncon/Faegon: After Tyrion leaves they need just 2 or 3 episodes so this isn't actually a real plot line.

That's only really 7 major plot lines and 3 smaller plot lines (plus a few one offs).

[protar]

It's because the entire point of the Dorne plot is for us to think that Doran is loyal to the Lannisters but then is revealed to be playing a long con. Otherwise Martin would've put us in Doran's head from the get-go. So it completely undermines the story if Quentyn shows up in Meereen too early.

That isn't the entire point of Dorne. The point of Dorne in AFFC is to set up the characters and dynamics for a more vital role in TWOW. In the books it so happens that Doran's motives are a surprise but it works just as well with dramatic irony and the audience knowing what Arianne does not. Furthermore despite the audience knowing Quentyn is trying to woo Dany, they wouldn't know just how anti-lannister Doran truly is.

[Miryana]

I think Obara's casting indicates Darkstar's casting. So far as we can see her only role is to chase Darkstar - she's easily the most dispensible of the Sand Snakes, being sent off on a wacky side quest involving Dorkstar and the human brick wall when the other two are going to KL. No reason to include her without the hunt for Darkstar.

As was suggested earlier, Obara and Darkstar could be merged. That way they'd get a character who attacks Myrcella but they can also kill Obara in that battle, in a duel with Hotah perhaps (the TWOW hunt seems much, much less potentially important than the future plots of the other Sand Snakes). That would conclude the plotline and avoid a side quest on TV, just like killing Talisa settled the question of what happens to Robb's wife on TV even though Jeyne Westerling lives in the books.

[protar]

As was suggested earlier, Obara and Darkstar could be merged. That way they'd get a character who attacks Myrcella but they can also kill Obara in that battle, in a duel with Hotah perhaps (the TWOW hunt seems much, much less potentially important than the future plots of the other Sand Snakes). That would conclude the plotline and avoid a side quest on TV, just like killing Talisa settled the question of what happens to Robb's wife on TV even though Jeyne Westerling lives in the books.

But why not just cast Darkstar for that? I mean they're playing it kind of risking casting three, almost certainly four sexy, latinas. I know D+D like boobs but there's no reason to risk homogenising the Dornish cast so much when they could just cast Darkstar.

[Onna Lewyys]

That isn't the entire point of Dorne. The point of Dorne in AFFC is to set up the characters and dynamics for a more vital role in TWOW. In the books it so happens that Doran's motives are a surprise but it works just as well with dramatic irony and the audience knowing what Arianne does not. Furthermore despite the audience knowing Quentyn is trying to woo Dany, they wouldn't know just how anti-lannister Doran truly is.

Then the audience would be wondering why the hell Doran isn't just telling Arianne about his plot.

[protar]

Then the audience would be wondering why the hell Doran isn't just telling Arianne about his plot.

The same reason he doesn't in the books? Because he doesn't trust her to keep her mouth shut. I mean you could make the exact same complaint about the books in retrospect.

[Miryana]

But why not just cast Darkstar for that? I mean they're playing it kind of risking casting three, almost certainly four sexy, latinas. I know D+D like boobs but there's no reason to risk homogenising the Dornish cast so much when they could just cast Darkstar.

Considering how they adapted Daario, Show Darkstar would be less laughable than he was in the books. But though it's true that there's going to be four hot women in Dorne, five counting the already established Ellaria, and they might want variety (I think they'll do something like the colour-coded dresses in KL, the Snakes and Arianne will all have clearly different looks, as the casting info suggests), Darkstar is incredibly easy to cut because he has no ties to anyone that matters on TV; his one big-ish deed can easily be given to a Sand Snake or even a made-up soldier who'd be a Dornish Locke and could be killed without contradicting whatever extra stuff GRRM has Darkstar do in TWOW but for which there won't be room in a seven-season GOT. I guess his chances improve if there's no Oakheart because HBO has to have a sex scene in Dorne, but even then I think it's most likely that he'll get killed as a way of concluding the plot and Obara will have something else to do on the show. Perhaps she'll accompany Arianne so she has a confidante to interact and plan with when she goes to meet Aegon. With Obara = Darkstar I'm mostly thinking of stuff like Gendry = Edric or Loras = Willas, moving an existing minor character into a different but related plot so that the show doesn't need to introduce even more people.

[protar]

Considering how they adapted Daario, Show Darkstar would be less laughable than he was in the books. But though it's true that there's going to be four hot women in Dorne, five counting the already established Ellaria, and they might want variety (I think they'll do something like the colour-coded dresses in KL, the Snakes and Arianne will all have clearly different looks, as the casting info suggests), Darkstar is incredibly easy to cut because he has no ties to anyone that matters on TV; his one big-ish deed can easily be given to a Sand Snake or even a made-up soldier who'd be a Dornish Locke and could be killed without contradicting whatever extra stuff GRRM has Darkstar do in TWOW but for which there won't be room in a seven-season GOT. I guess his chances improve if there's no Oakheart because HBO has to have a sex scene in Dorne, but even then I think it's most likely that he'll get killed as a way of concluding the plot and Obara will have something else to do on the show. Perhaps she'll accompany Arianne so she has a confidante to interact and plan with when she goes to meet Aegon. With Obara = Darkstar I'm mostly thinking of stuff like Gendry = Edric or Loras = Willas, moving an existing minor character into a different but related plot so that the show doesn't need to introduce even more people.

It's definitely a possibility, but you know I tend to think Darkstar will actually be important. There's just something about him. Dorky as he was too much attention was paid to him for his plot to go nowhere, and Martin seemed very surprised and dismayed that no one liked him from what I hear.

[Deadwood]

Probably to do with the name.

How can anyone not like a person called, 'Darkstar.'

[Onna Lewyys]

The same reason he doesn't in the books? Because he doesn't trust her to keep her mouth shut. I mean you could make the exact same complaint about the books in retrospect.

My point is that it changes the way the audience reacts to the story as it's happening (likely being annoyed rather than intrigued). But whatever, I'm sick of talking about it, so you win.

[protar]

My point is that it changes the way the audience reacts to the story as it's happening (likely being annoyed rather than intrigued). But whatever, I'm sick of talking about it, so you win.

I do admire someone who can graciously admit defeat ;)

[Onna Lewyys]

Well, only time will truly tell. ;)

[Deadwood]

Doesn't look good for Darkstar, Arianne or Quentyn at the mo, :D

[protar]

Doesn't look good for Darkstar, Arianne or Quentyn at the mo, :D

Looks no better or worse than it did a few days ago - there's been no new news :p. Please don't provoke me with the notion that they'll be cutting my Arianne.