Season Five Casting

[HairGrowsBack]

Re. Jaime, I think the wise decision would be to cut a good chunk of his pacifying the Riverlands, while keeping the Riverrun siege as a token of what he's able to accomplish (and an exposition of the situation in this particular area). Then he follows Brienne and we delve into TWoW material.

[protar]

The Battle of Ice in season 5 makes a lot of sense considering the Pink Letter kind of relies on it, and there's no better way to end for Jon in season 5 than his stabbing.

That's if you assume Ramsay's letter is true. More likely the battle hasn't happened yet.

[jentario]

Dany is already eating into her ADWD material this season, and production stills have all but confirmed that Jorah will be banished at the end of this season. Dany's arc in S5 will really be quite straightforward - marry Hizdahr, turn down Quentyn, reopen fighting pits and fly off on Drogon and then vanish until the Battle of Fire. Tyrion can be present in every or almost every episode but a scene or two in each is enough to get him to Meereen by episode 9.

Dany barely gets into ADWD material. She gets the first couple of chapters dealing with the dragons buring the kid, but other than that she is just in a love triangle between Jorah and Daario. Jorah's banishment happens in ASOS, so that's still book 3 material. They can still include a lot of things if they want to put the battle of Meereen in season 5. There's the pale mare, the Sons of the Harpy, Hizdahr, the Green Grace, the Shavepate, treating with Yunkai, marrying Hizdahr, introducing Quentyn, the Daznak Pit... And honestly, do we really need to focus on Dany in season 5? If she gets less screen time, others get more screen time. Then she ends with the Daznak Pit and features heavily in season 6 (probably getting to Westeros) while you let other storylines progress (Winterfell, King's Landing, Jamie and Brienne, Arya...). You really don't NEED the battle in season 5, it's just that we want to get Dany out of Meereen ASAP. We can have the battle of Winterfell as ourt big episode 9 set piece- although I don't think it'd take the whole episode, you can intertwine it with other big events such as Cersei being captured, Arya assassinating someone and taking a new face, the Daznak Pit and more! It would still be an amazing Episode 9 and it would still be an amazing season. It would hust be less rushed and more Winterfell-centric than Dany-centric. Also, it means Tyrion can take his time with the Griffs and still arrive before the Daznak Pit, it means the Tyrion=slave arc would be longer and cleaner and it means Quentyn can appear in the right time (somewhere after Doran's reveal) and still stay on screen in Meereen for a good five episodes (because it bleeds into season 6 a bit).

It's just much better all around, even if show watchers will find Dany's storyline a bit irrelevant throughout the season.

[jentario]

That's if you assume Ramsay's letter is true. More likely the battle hasn't happened yet.

I think GRRM confirmed in the interview that the Theon gift chapter was before Jon receives the Pink Letter.

Also, I don't believe Stannis is dead, but I do believe that he is faking his own death and has infiltrated Winterfell with his army dressed as Freys.

[protar]

Dany barely gets into ADWD material. She gets the first couple of chapters dealing with the dragons buring the kid, but other than that she is just in a love triangle between Jorah and Daario. Jorah's banishment happens in ASOS, so that's still book 3 material. They can still include a lot of things if they want to put the battle of Meereen in season 5. There's the pale mare, the Sons of the Harpy, Hizdahr, the Green Grace, the Shavepate, treating with Yunkai, marrying Hizdahr, introducing Quentyn, the Daznak Pit... And honestly, do we really need to focus on Dany in season 5? If she gets less screen time, others get more screen time. Then she ends with the Daznak Pit and features heavily in season 6 (probably getting to Westeros) while you let other storylines progress (Winterfell, King's Landing, Jamie and Brienne, Arya...). You really don't NEED the battle in season 5, it's just that we want to get Dany out of Meereen ASAP. We can have the battle of Winterfell as ourt big episode 9 set piece- although I don't think it'd take the whole episode, you can intertwine it with other big events such as Cersei being captured, Arya assassinating someone and taking a new face, the Daznak Pit and more! It would still be an amazing Episode 9 and it would still be an amazing season. It would hust be less rushed and more Winterfell-centric than Dany-centric. Also, it means Tyrion can take his time with the Griffs and still arrive before the Daznak Pit, it means the Tyrion=slave arc would be longer and cleaner and it means Quentyn can appear in the right time (somewhere after Doran's reveal) and still stay on screen in Meereen for a good five episodes (because it bleeds into season 6 a bit).

It's just much better all around, even if show watchers will find Dany's storyline a bit irrelevant throughout the season.

Well firstly - and this is supposition based on sample chapters - I think the Battle of Ice will be unsuitable for the finale of season 5. I think it will be a drawn out protracted affair, whereas the Battle of Fire will be a big bang. It's Ice and Fire. I also think that speeding up Ice will actually throw things more out of sync than speeding up Fire. The former will is directly tied to everything else in Westeros whereas Meereen is indirectly connected via however long Dany takes to sail to Westeros - an incredibly mutable factor.

Also Dany not getting to Westeros is pretty much the big complaint about the show from casual viewers. So promising S5 as the season when Dany will finally start interacting with Westeros and will set sail will be a big selling point of S5. To not follow through with that will be incredibly frustrating, whereas viewers will be a lot more forgiving of Ice being postponed. S5 is not the season to the downgrading Dany. Not when Tyrion is making her way towards her, and not when the events in her arc directly set up her return to Westeros.

And finally I reject any notion that anything need be sacrificed to finish S5 with the Battle of Fire. There's plenty of space with some judicious cutting.

[protar]

I think GRRM confirmed in the interview that the Theon gift chapter was before Jon receives the Pink Letter.

Also, I don't believe Stannis is dead, but I do believe that he is faking his own death and has infiltrated Winterfell with his army dressed as Freys.

True, however that doesn't mean the letter comes after the battle.

[SerArthurHeath]

True, however that doesn't mean the letter comes after the battle.

There's a whole theory page for that!

Though I guess we might find out, as season 5 is almost certain to precede Winds

[FNF]

The problem isn't the lack of a big shocking event but rather that it entirely changes the context behind Doran's actions and the effect it has on his character. There'd be no need to worry about consequences especially if there is also no Arys to lose as well, and no guilt on Arianne's part, and for all the emotional and narrative impact it would have, I'd argue you may as well drop the whole arc

At the end of the day, Doran was always planning on having Quentyn and Dany hook up. Now this is only revealed to the reader after Arianne is briefed on why Dorne shouldn't go into open way with the Lannisters yet. Therefore, I would argue that the main purpose of the arc isn't so much the personal consequences involved. Instead it is a way for the story to progress on to Quentyn's arc. Even if this arc is only in the 2nd - 3rd episodes of season 5, it can be used as a means to introduce Doran's plan like it does in the book.

[Janicia]

How does this work? There's nothing Obara can do in that role that Quentyn can't do and let's not forgot Quent is going to Meereen to marry Dany. So yeah...Obara isn't doing that presumably. I think Obara's casting indicates Darkstar's casting. So far as we can see her only role is to chase Darkstar - she's easily the most dispensible of the Sand Snakes, being sent off on a wacky side quest involving Dorkstar and the human brick wall when the other two are going to KL. No reason to include her without the hunt for Darkstar.

Part of the issue with the Quentyn material is that his quest is futile, but another big issue is that Quentyn is hapless and bumbling and it makes Doran look bad for thinking it would work. Oberyn's vengence was futile but that was fine because we enjoyed spending the time with Oberyn. Maybe in the show, Doran keeps hearing about Dany and thinks "this is a strong independent woman who seems to be waiting around for some Westerosi backing before she commits to invading. I'll offer her an army if I become her Hand, and I'll send my most adventurous niece, a kindred spirit to her, to deliver the message." It is more respectful to Dany to approach her on that level than to try pushing her into an immediate marriage. But Obara and Dany get off on the wrong foot and Dany is too committed to Mereen, so the mission fails. As you point out, there wasn't much point in casting Obara if they're going to follow the book material with her, and there is little reason to send Loras to Dorne.

[protar]

Part of the issue with the Quentyn material is that his quest is futile, but another big issue is that Quentyn is hapless and bumbling and it makes Doran look bad for thinking it would work. Oberyn's vengence was futile but that was fine because we enjoyed spending the time with Oberyn. Maybe in the show, Doran keeps hearing about Dany and thinks "this is a strong independent woman who seems to be waiting around for some Westerosi backing before she commits to invading. I'll offer her an army if I become her Hand, and I'll send my most adventurous niece, a kindred spirit to her, to deliver the message." It is more respectful to Dany to approach her on that level than to try pushing her into an immediate marriage. But Obara and Dany get off on the wrong foot and Dany is too committed to Mereen, so the mission fails. As you point out, there wasn't much point in casting Obara if they're going to follow the book material with her, and there is little reason to send Loras to Dorne.

It could theoretically work, but I see it as a needless complication. Plus Quentyn being rather bumbling and incompetent is no more unrealistic than it was in the books. It's actually quite tragic and adds another layer to the story - Doran doesn't even know his own son because he sent him off to be fostered away from home for all his life.

[Mos]

That's my interpretation as well.

The casual remark that Lord Frey now rules Riverun seems to me confirmation that chunk of AFFC/ADWD has been excised from the show. Which makes logical sense because if Brienne's storyline is being drastically advanced then Jamie's should be as well.

Even if I will miss the siege of Riverrun, it seems likely to be cut.

But then one wonders... What will bring Jaime into the Riverlands?

[Deadwood]

So, anyone wanna take bets on the Iroborn? I say they're in but in but much less present than in the books.

What would you wish to bet? :)

[Deadwood]

Does this mean we think they are going to invent material for the likes of Jaime again? I suppose he's been off canon since season 2 anyway so it doesn't really matter

Yes.

[franko99]

I agree, Maggy is more significant than Garlan...only in a way I really, really don't like

Can't agree more, she's probably the worst plot device in Martin's novel, and it really ruined Cersei's character for me. Also, knowing they're going to start using flashbacks now (otherwise I don't know how they'll made Maggy work) is going to be really dissapointed, since they "lost the oportunity" of showing the ToJ or Jaime's memories of Aerys and Raeghar

[Janicia]

It could theoretically work, but I see it as a needless complication. Plus Quentyn being rather bumbling and incompetent is no more unrealistic than it was in the books. It's actually quite tragic and adds another layer to the story - Doran doesn't even know his own son because he sent him off to be fostered away from home for all his life.

I would have had no problem omitting Obara from the story. But given that she's in, she might as well do something interesting and replace a character nobody much likes. The mission fails. Doran misjudges. We get some tragedy and layers. I want the show to slim down the cast list enough that we see real characters rather than a bunch of cameos of extras with one line each. I have no objection to the argument that we don't need any sand snakes. But now we have 3, so they will probably (and should) do most of the stuff that the books have Dornish characters doing. Game of Thrones prides itself on strong female characters, but the named male characters outnumber the named females - I kinda like the idea of evening that out a bit with the waif and the sand snakes absorbing some of the male characters.

Anyway, after the Myrcella incident, Doran has to rein in the sand snakes. He could jail them, or he could immediately send them on missions to get them to stop causing trouble in Dorne. It is economical to have that be part of the motivation for the quest to Dany, rather than introducing Qyentyn and his baggage.

[protar]

I would have had no problem omitting Obara from the story. But given that she's in, she might as well do something interesting and replace a character nobody much likes. The mission fails. Doran misjudges. We get some tragedy and layers. I want the show to slim down the cast list enough that we see real characters rather than a bunch of cameos of extras with one line each. I have no objection to the argument that we don't need any sand snakes. But now we have 3, so they will probably (and should) do most of the stuff that the books have Dornish characters doing. Game of Thrones prides itself on strong female characters, but the named male characters outnumber the named females - I kinda like the idea of evening that out a bit with the waif and the sand snakes absorbing some of the male characters.

Anyway, after the Myrcella incident, Doran has to rein in the sand snakes. He could jail them, or he could immediately send them on missions to get them to stop causing trouble in Dorne. It is economical to have that be part of the motivation for the quest to Dany, rather than introducing Qyentyn and his baggage.

I really don't think they'd turn Darkstar into a girl just to even out the gender ratios. I mean it's not like D+D are conscious of their female audience anyway if you ask me. If Darkstar has a role to play it'll be taken by Darkstar. Imo Obara's casting is more likely an indication that DS is in that that he's cut.

[Aemond's Eye]

It appears the show is looking to continue the trend it started with Pedro Pascal, and cast Latino actors for the Martell clan.

I can already see people not liking that...

As long as Tyene is white I'm fine with it. ;)

[Janicia]

I really don't think they'd turn Darkstar into a girl just to even out the gender ratios. I mean it's not like D+D are conscious of their female audience anyway if you ask me. If Darkstar has a role to play it'll be taken by Darkstar. Imo Obara's casting is more likely an indication that DS is in that that he's cut.

The whole point of my argument was that I doubt there will be a Darkstar and without him there isn't much for Obara to do from the book material. We know she does something because she has a fight scene with a major character. They could invent a subplot where Cersei sends Loras to Dorne to rescue Myrcella and fights Obara. Its possible. That would be a way for Cersei to simultaneously pick fights with the Tyrells (sending Loras on suicide mission rather than marrying him) and the Martells (trying to get Myrcella back). Or they could stay closer to the book material regarding Myrcella, send Obara to Dany, and skip Quentyn entirely. My mind jumped immediately to the second option. A bunch of other people seem to favor the first. It is my opinion that Obara would be more interesting emissary than Quentyn.

The series has a number of political female characters: Cersei, Margery, Olenna, Dany, Catelyn, Sansa. It also has some warrior women: Arya, Brienne, Osha, Ygritte. Yara is both. I hope the show has the Sand Snakes act in both political and warrior spheres.

[Half Man]

I honestly have no clue why so many people are upset that Maggy is going to be in the show. I was actually getting worried that we weren't getting enough prophecies in the series. I'm cool with her being in it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I honestly have no clue why so many people are upset that Maggy is going to be in the show. I was actually getting worried that we weren't getting enough prophecies in the series. I'm cool with her being in it.

Agree. We haven't had pretty much any kind of prophecy so far.