What is your opinion on AFFC and ADWD?

[BastardlyRock]

I don't know, I've seen this argument often and I really don't agree with it. I guess it's a common misconception, but something being "slow", "contemplative", "quiet" (and other similar adjectives used to describe Feast) doesn't mean it is also thoughtful, deep or complex.

Look at Contemplative Cinema (also known as Slow Cinema). Pretentious as all hell, with no substance underneath. For all those people who say Feast is "oh, so complex" (I don't mean you, coil) I've never read a single compelling argument of what complexity lurks under Aeron's, Victarion's or Arys' chapters.

On the other hand, the first three books offer amazingly complex and fascinating character development and character arcs, despite being full of that pesky and annoying little thing called "plot".

I'm a firm believer that we can have it all: we can have intricate world-building, thoughtful themes, and plot progression. You know, just like we had in the first three books. In fact, I'd argue that juggling those elements effectively is the mark of a good writer

I promise I'm not trying to open another can of worms! I just wanted to put in a couple more cents (all for the sake of the discussion :devil: ). . .

Allow me first to stem off to another series, I swear I'll bring it full circle. Did you read Harry Potter? (silly question to most, I'm sure, but some haven't so hey) I wonder which your favorite book was? For me it was Prisoner of Azkaban, and the reason was that it was the first, and by the end of the series only, book which didn't exclusively feature a plot driven around and leading towards a climax with Voldemort. It was so wonderfully different to me! It still took place in the world that I'd come to love, but for once I got a story centered around something (slightly) extraneous to the main plot of Voldemort's return and subsequent pwning of noob wizards. Instead we got some nice insight to Harry's own feelings towards his godfather, his parents, the questionable events surrounding their deaths, etc. etc.

For me AFFC was very much that same welcome break. It wasn't that I didn't love the first three, I absolutely do! Just that for once it was nice to explore the world I'd come to love so much through the eyes of different characters. What? No Jon Snow you say!? Sweet! No Dany!? Fine. No Tyrion!? (Ok, that was a sad revelation, but I got over it.) What I'm saying is not every character in Westeros has to be Jon Snow, or Dany, and so when I got to the chapters about the Damphair, or Areo, I was excited to see the world through a new set of eyes, even if these characters are not "the most interesting men in the world." The fact that they're close to more important characters (such as Areo is with Doran) never bothered me either, as I only saw it as a way to learn more about the important people while I also gained some insight into the minds of the "less important" people.

Plot development, in my mind, doesn't always have to propel the story in the traditional sense, but can instead be found in character's intimate moments at rest, when there isn't a lot going on and we have a chance to see them for who they are. Then when that action we're so craving does happen, it's all the sweeter for it because we've acquired a deeper and more profound understanding of the character it's happening to.

edit: As for Victarion and Aeron chapters, I continue to reserve much judgement until after the series is done, as I feel they still have considerably larger parts to play and any information gathered in their earlier AFFC chapters may end up being incredibly illuminating, regardless of how trite they seemed at the time.

[Holy Sock]

I don't know, I've seen this argument often and I really don't agree with it. I guess it's a common misconception, but something being "slow", "contemplative", "quiet" (and other similar adjectives used to describe Feast) doesn't mean it is also thoughtful, deep or complex.

Look at Contemplative Cinema (also known as Slow Cinema). Pretentious as all hell, with no substance underneath. For all those people who say Feast is "oh, so complex" (I don't mean you, coil) I've never read a single compelling argument of what complexity lurks under Aeron's, Victarion's or Arys' chapters.

On the other hand, the first three books offer amazingly complex and fascinating character development and character arcs, despite being full of that pesky and annoying little thing called "plot".

I'm a firm believer that we can have it all: we can have intricate world-building, thoughtful themes, and plot progression. You know, just like we had in the first three books. In fact, I'd argue that juggling those elements effectively is the mark of a good writer

But I think many argue that they are thoughtful, deep and complex. Some argue that they are much more than the first three. I mean you could turn it the other way around and say just because something is slow, contemplative and quiet doesn't mean it's uninteresting, boring or lacking in literary merit.

[ambi76]

AFFC is my favorite (despite sleep inducing Ironborn) after ASOS and always was. ADWD makes me want to throw something out of the window (and not for love) up until we catch up with the AFFC timeline, and its epilogue made me squee (Varys is one scary mofo). Will need to try out one of those mixed readings once, to maybe get into ADWD more.

[Queen of Whores]

Why are some people complaining about the slow-pace of Feast? What exactly were they expecting, big plot twists and battles every three pages like Storm? Do people not understand why the book is called A Feast for Crows? The war is (officially) over; the rebels are dead; the aftermath has come. It's meant to be a somewhat calm after (and before) the next storm, no pun intended. It wouldn't make any logical sense to have plot twists and battles fill the pages of Feast, since the story has to build back up to that level, which it does. We still got some action, like the seizing of the Shield Isles, Brienne's battles with the Brave Companions and Arys' suicide charge. They weren't large in scale, sure, but they were still exciting. I personally find A Clash of Kings and A Dance with Dragons far slower than Feast. I'm not saying people can't say it's slow, because it is to a degree (even though I love its pace and tone), but it's not just slow to piss people off, it's slow because it has to be.

[ChildoftheTropicalForest]

Appreciating Feast much more on the second read. I think the first time around it was a let down after ASoS. Loved Dance as there were many reveals especially Bran and Theon. I think I've read Jon's last chapter 5 times already. Can't wait for TWoW.

[Veltigar]

AFFC is my favorite book in the series. ADWD would beat it, if it weren't for some Dany and Tyrion chapters and the lack of a strong finish point to the novel. Of course that isn't something that happened over night. I remember reading AFFC a few years before the show and ADWD came out and I was really disappointed back then, because the change was to abrupt and there was no ADWD to continue in immediatly. Nowadays, after a couple of rereads and the publication of ADWD I have recognized AFFC as a real standout.

It has the best prose in the books (barring perhaps Theon's chapters in ADWD) and it is filled with great worldbuilding. I also like that we see more of the devastation of Westeros. One of my main points of criticism about ASOIAF is that it's to much about the nobility, but AFFC shows us what their games did to Joerys the plumber.

I also feel that many people are injust in comparing AFFC with ASOS. ASOS was the culmination of the first act. It could only move at such a mindboggling pace because GRRM had used two books to set ASOS up. It's therefore more appropriate to compare AFFC with AGOT and ACOK. Personally, I feel like AFFC does a much better job at setting up the next part of the story than either of those (especially ACOK which is the weakest book in the series) and it has a harder task set out for it since most of the popular characters from the previous installments are left out of it.

I also like how GRRM made an effort to bring in more characters into his world that don't really fit a traditional fantasy story (or at least not as PoV's). Think about Cersei for instance, how many time does the evil stepmother/queen get a PoV? I also liked how her PoV showed her being corrupted by power (the wine, Taena, etc.). Or Victarion, a dumb brute of a man, but still very much a human? Or a religious fanatic like Aeron?

EDIT: Also AFFC introduced us to Victarion and Cersei two of the funniest PoV's in the series. And on the whole it brought us more Greyjoy, the most interesting house of them all.

I promise I'm not trying to open another can of worms! I just wanted to put in a couple more cents (all for the sake of the discussion :devil: ). . .

Allow me first to stem off to another series, I swear I'll bring it full circle. Did you read Harry Potter? (silly question to most, I'm sure, but some haven't so hey) I wonder which your favorite book was? For me it was Prisoner of Azkaban, and the reason was that it was the first, and by the end of the series only, book which didn't exclusively feature a plot driven around and leading towards a climax with Voldemort. It was so wonderfully different to me! It still took place in the world that I'd come to love, but for once I got a story centered around something (slightly) extraneous to the main plot of Voldemort's return and subsequent pwning of noob wizards. Instead we got some nice insight to Harry's own feelings towards his godfather, his parents, the questionable events surrounding their deaths, etc. etc.

For me AFFC was very much that same welcome break. It wasn't that I didn't love the first three, I absolutely do! Just that for once it was nice to explore the world I'd come to love so much through the eyes of different characters. What? No Jon Snow you say!? Sweet! No Dany!? Fine. No Tyrion!? (Ok, that was a sad revelation, but I got over it.) What I'm saying is not every character in Westeros has to be Jon Snow, or Dany, and so when I got to the chapters about the Damphair, or Areo, I was excited to see the world through a new set of eyes, even if these characters are not "the most interesting men in the world." The fact that they're close to more important characters (such as Areo is with Doran) never bothered me either, as I only saw it as a way to learn more about the important people while I also gained some insight into the minds of the "less important" people.

Plot development, in my mind, doesn't always have to propel the story in the traditional sense, but can instead be found in character's intimate moments at rest, when there isn't a lot going on and we have a chance to see them for who they are. Then when that action we're so craving does happen, it's all the sweeter for it because we've acquired a deeper and more profound understanding of the character it's happening to.

:bowdown: Although I'm still torn between the Prisoner of Azkaban and the Order of the Phoenix, I agree with you here :D

[Game Of Thrones]

AFFC was boring. Seriously.

ADWD was better, the North was good (not as good as ASoS though) and to me Meereen was okay.

[Blockfetcher]

If I waited 5 years for a new book only to receive AFFC, I would have felt massively disappointed. Regardless of quality, the fact that people had to wait 11 years for a new tyrion or jon chapter is just inexcusable.

[Holy Sock]

If I waited 5 years for a new book only to receive AFFC, I would have felt massively disappointed. Regardless of quality, the fact that people had to wait 11 years for a new tyrion or jon chapter is just inexcusable.

"Inexcusable" seems rather dramatic.

[First of the First Men]

My ranking:

ADWD

ASOS

AFFC

ACOK

AGOT

ASOS is very much plot-driven, while ADWD is more character-driven. When I first read the books, I think I enjoyed ADWD even more than ASOS, and since then things have sunk in and I like it even more, especially since reading all the stuff the Meereenese Blot has to say about the character development in ADWD. When I first read ADWD it was the first time I had a feeling that the story actually converges onto some end. I love the "rivers flowing into rivers" motif in ADWD, like Tyrion travelling down the Rhoyne and Dany starting out from Drogon's hill to search for Meereen in her last chapter. But I also remember thinking that GRRM is never going to get it done in seven books, he will need eight. On my reread I didn't feel that way, maybe because I read AFFC and ADWD in parallel.

I don't mind ADWD ending with several cliffhangers. In a few years none of this will matter.

AFFC/ADWD also have a lot to offer in terms of world building and there are lots of things that would make great short stories on their own and that I keep rereading:

- Cersei's dinner with Kevan

- Brienne going to The Whispers - great horror story with a both exhilarating and poignant ending (RIP Nimble Dick)

- Septon Meribald's "Broken Men" tale

- The Elder Brother's story and his take on the Hound's character during the Quiet Isle chapter (yes, I really like Brienne's travelogue)

- Brienne fighting Rorge in the rain - I was so afraid for the children I was sick. There simply was this image of children sitting inside and eating after going hungry.

- Maggy's self-fulfilling prophecy

- Cersei wondering why all her appointees are incompetent

- The High Sparrow's "No."

- Jaime pondering the White Book and evaluating his life

- Jaime conquering Riverrun

- Jaime witnessing the first snow in the Riverlands - winter is coming and it hits him like a ton of bricks. This "what have we done?" moment.

- Sam's arrival at the Citadel

- The Varamyr prologue - the sad story of his childhood

- Davos in the Merman's Court and then Manderly revealing Wex

- Dany flying off with Drogon

- Things turning somewhat sour for Roose and Ramsay in WF

- All things Reek/Theon - you REALLY need to know how to write to pull this kind of thing off

- Tyrion hitting rock bottom and then bouncing back

- The Bridge of Dream - Chroyane is like something out of a Turner painting

- Dany's chapters - what would you have done in her stead? To quote Roose Bolton: "It is a quandary."

- Dany's last chapter - her (or my?) palpable sense of relief of finally being away from all the scheming and the uncertainty in Meereen and her turn to the dark side. The calm in the endless grass sea and her hallucinations.

- Victarion being healed by Moqorro - this will not end well but his new-found determination was fearsome to behold. The same "free not to care anymore" feeling as with Dany.

- That epilogue - Varys you sly SOAB, if you wouldn't have childrens' tongues cut out I could almost like you. I loved Kevan though.

This is the stuff that stays with you long after the suspense is gone. I don't reread so much from the first three books. Then again, maybe I like AFFC and ADWD so much because the WOT5K is over, but the later stuff is still mostly unresolved.

[Lonin]

I like all the books a lot. My problem/concern/complaint about affc and adwd is that the story seemed to grow ... added more plots/subplots story arcs ---- The story had grown from 3 books to many more - I have begun to wonder if grrm has the story under control... can he get to the ending he wanted, I am not sure.

[Holy Sock]

My ranking:

ADWD

ASOS

AFFC

ACOK

AGOT

ASOS is very much plot-driven, while ADWD is more character-driven. When I first read the books, I think I enjoyed ADWD even more than ASOS, and since then things have sunk in and I like it even more, especially since reading all the stuff the Meereenese Blot has to say about the character development in ADWD. When I first read ADWD it was the first time I had a feeling that the story actually converges onto some end. I love the "rivers flowing into rivers" motif in ADWD, like Tyrion travelling down the Rhoyne and Dany starting out from Drogon's hill to search for Meereen in her last chapter. But I also remember thinking that GRRM is never going to get it done in seven books, he will need eight. On my reread I didn't feel that way, maybe because I read AFFC and ADWD in parallel.

I don't mind ADWD ending with several cliffhangers. In a few years none of this will matter.

AFFC/ADWD also have a lot to offer in terms of world building and there are lots of things that would make great short stories on their own and that I keep rereading:

- Cersei's dinner with Kevan

- Brienne going to The Whispers - great horror story with a both exhilarating and poignant ending (RIP Nimble Dick)

- Septon Meribald's "Broken Men" tale

- The Elder Brother's story and his take on the Hound's character during the Quiet Isle chapter (yes, I really like Brienne's travelogue)

- Brienne fighting Rorge in the rain - I was so afraid for the children I was sick. There simply was this image of children sitting inside and eating after going hungry.

- Maggy's self-fulfilling prophecy

- Cersei wondering why all her appointees are incompetent

- The High Sparrow's "No."

- Jaime pondering the White Book and evaluating his life

- Jaime conquering Riverrun

- Jaime witnessing the first snow in the Riverlands - winter is coming and it hits him like a ton of bricks. This "what have we done?" moment.

- Sam's arrival at the Citadel

- The Varamyr prologue - the sad story of his childhood

- Davos in the Merman's Court and then Manderly revealing Wex

- Dany flying off with Drogon

- Things turning somewhat sour for Roose and Ramsay in WF

- All things Reek/Theon - you REALLY need to know how to write to pull this kind of thing off

- Tyrion hitting rock bottom and then bouncing back

- The Bridge of Dream - Chroyane is like something out of a Turner painting

- Dany's chapters - what would you have done in her stead? To quote Roose Bolton: "It is a quandary."

- Dany's last chapter - her (or my?) palpable sense of relief of finally being away from all the scheming and the uncertainty in Meereen and her turn to the dark side. The calm in the endless grass sea and her hallucinations.

- Victarion being healed by Moqorro - this will not end well but his new-found determination was fearsome to behold. The same "free not to care anymore" feeling as with Dany.

- That epilogue - Varys you sly SOAB, if you wouldn't have childrens' tongues cut out I could almost like you. I loved Kevan though.

This is the stuff that stays with you long after the suspense is gone. I don't reread so much from the first three books. Then again, maybe I like AFFC and ADWD so much because the WOT5K is over, but the later stuff is still mostly unresolved.

This is a great list. I've read Varamyr's chapter again recently and I think it's one of the most well written chapters in the whole series.

[VermithorSunni]

Yeah, I get that you need new POVs in new settings. What I don't get is why Martin had to pick those who are so incredibly unengaging, and why did he need several of them in the same place.

I don't get why we HAD to see Dorne from Arys POV and not Arianne's. I don't get why we couldn't see Doran and the Sand Snakes through Arianne's POV instead of that camera with legs that is Hotah

Everything we know about Arys, Hotah, Aeron, Victarion and Quentyn we could have still find out without their POV: one was a sexually unexperienced kingsguard that was seduced by a beautiful Dornish princess, one is a faithful guard, one is entirely devoted to the Drowned God, one is a simple captain, one was a shy kid that tried to steal a dragon to prove his worth. I wouldn't have needed a POV to get this, it's not like they're terribly complex characters. In fact, they simply pale before more complex non-POVs like Sandor, Stannis, Jorah, Olenna, Littlefinger, Varys, etc

We could have gotten Arianne, who is by far the most complex, multi-dimensional and interesting character of the new ones introduced in Feast. Ditto Asha. We didn't need Victarion and Aeron because they are incredibly straightforward characters, they tell us what we already know, so a POV is simply wasted on them because their inner lives are not that rich. Compare that to Asha, whose identity wavers between the Ironborn reaving culture and a peace with the greenlands, between a warmonger father and frail sick mother who took the toll of the war, between her own desire to be queen and her desire to go back and eat peaches with Qarl. Her character growth when she realizes the futility of the Old Way is like a billion times more interesting than whatever inane thought her uncles get. But instead of exploring her psyche more, Martin gave us Aeron just rambling off about the fucking sea and Victarion SMASH!

That right there is what pisses me off about these POVs. Instead of getting more about Arianne's conflicting wishes, we get Hotah talking about a damn axe. Like, what the hell is the literary importance of that? Anyone can figure those kinds of characters in a minute. Yeah, he's a foreigner on a strange land, got it. They don't even bring new themes or ideas.

Connington is bland, yes, but at least he's not on the cardboard level of Arys, Areo, Aeron, Victarion and Quentyn. Those are the ones that just grind my gears

When I first read AFFC it was my least favorite book. I was hoping that the plot threads in the previous books would start to be woven together. Instead, things got infinitely more complex. At one point I made a list of the characters that were introduced in the Prologue of AFFC because I though it was so hard to follow. And that was just the prologue. Now that I've accepted length and complexity of the series… well, AFFC doesn't matter much as a stand alone book.

I loved ADWD!!! Dany rides a dragon for God's sake! That was worth the whole book. jk, but… ok, almost worth the whole book.

There are a few posters offering really in-depth analysis of the different character arcs and plot points in both books. Impressive. Sorry to say I won't be doing that.

I am surprised to say that:

I do find Essos interesting (unpronounceable Q and Z names aside). The development of Dany's marriage and Barristan's position after she left was thrilling.

I found myself wondering if Victarion was my favorite Greyjoy. The man thinks like he's half ape, but he's kind of interesting all the same. Aeron Damphair, def not my fav.

I loved Asha's chapters in captivity.

I love the haunting of Winterfell in the snow, and the beginning of what I can only hope is the Boltons' utter loss of power. Walder Frey, are you listening? You're next!

And less surprisingly,

I love anything with Arya. And Sansa.

Tyrion and Dany NOT meeting broke my heart. But I'm glad they're both alive.

[Defeatarion]

AFFC is a damn good book. I actually welcomed the new characters. I welcomed the slow pace (Maybe I am weird?). I liked it better than ADWD. But if Dance had ended on the Battles for Mereen and WF, well depending on how good those sequences are, I think it would be making a run for the best book in the series.

[walkingWITHcersei]

Didn't love Feast at first but it gets better and better each reread! Storm was the best book but Feast is the most underrated!

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

I enjoyed both books. A lot. But I'll be honest, they were mostly filler. You could've cut half of Cersei and Jaime's chapters from aFfC, 1-2 from Tyrion in aDwD, nothing happened with Sansa and Arya, Bran should've had many more chapters than he did, as well as Davos, with Jon again, cut half of his story in Dance and you don't miss a thing. And Daenerys... ugh... I swear to god, I dread re-reading Dany chapters in aDwD. They're so boring and nothing happens in most of them. The only parts of the story that were done justice were Theon, the Greyjoys and the Martells. To add insult to injury, most of them end in cliffhangers or just unsatisfying resolutions. But don't get me wrong, they're good, both of them. Even though I complained all that much about all of these POV's, Cersei e.g., though her story is mostly filler, she, as a character, is very entertaining. As well as many others. Also, the brilliant pace and writing of these chapters were what held them together.

In short, even though I liked both Feast and Dance, I was disappointed that they weren't more than they really are.

[WelshLion]

They are both good books but they do not live up to the quality of the first 3.