Military Strengths of Major Houses

[Frey Pie]

Still people travel to Dorne or know about it's geography. Someone like Tyrion who reads a lot surely read about Dorne and it's history as well. Not everyone was in the North but they still know how big it is and about it's climate.

Being fierce is no indication of the size of an army...

No but it shows how a reputation can gloss over inconsistencies

And geographically Dorne isn't all that bad. It's quite large, politically close to the Targs for a hundred or so years, large coastline, few rivers etc. Fact is Tyrion never went there. Nor did Tywin, Jaime, LF, Edmure Tully etc. While trade and commerce occured there doesn't seem to have been a whole lot of actual travelling between the nobles of westeros e.g. cat hasn't seen Lysa since she was married.

The books he likely read are all second hand sources. Many of them could have been written by Dornish or even Martell maesters. In any case I find it easy enough to swallow that the Dornish could hide the truth about their vulnerability

[Stormland's Fury]

No but it shows how a reputation can gloss over inconsistencies

And geographically Dorne isn't all that bad. It's quite large, politically close to the Targs for a hundred or so years, large coastline, few rivers etc. Fact is Tyrion never went there. Nor did Tywin, Jaime, LF, Edmure Tully etc. While trade and commerce occured there doesn't seem to have been a whole lot of actual travelling between the nobles of westeros e.g. cat hasn't seen Lysa since she was married.

The books he likely read are all second hand sources. Many of them could have been written by Dornish or even Martell maesters. In any case I find it easy enough to swallow that the Dornish could hide the truth about their vulnerability

They just have to compare it. Dorne to the Reach.

If someone would tell me that the Morocco could get an army half as big as that of Germany I wold take that with a grain of salt. Especially if the Moroccan army is supposed to be bigger than that of France (Stormlands) on top of that.

[Frey Pie]

They just have to compare it. Dorne to the Reach.

If someone would tell me that the Morocco could get an army half as big as that of Germany I wold take that with a grain of salt. Especially if the Moroccan army is supposed to be bigger than that of France (Stormlands) on top of that.

But how many men do we know actually know the military might of other houses? A few would probably have an idea and there guess would be close but only stannis is renowned for knowing the actual strength of houses.

We'd be looking at our situation with the benefit of a wealth of education, as well as far far more information to go on. Information in Westeros is not at everyone's finger tips and even then there isn't that much of it. An example would be looking at the rule of the Starks in the north. Supposedly they have been kings for 8000 years but this is up for dispute according to both in world and out of world sources (george).

And correct me if I am wrong but I have never heard of a westerosi census?

[Stormland's Fury]

But how many men do we know actually know the military might of other houses? A few would probably have an idea and there guess would be close but only stannis is renowned for knowing the actual strength of houses.

We'd be looking at our situation with the benefit of a wealth of education, as well as far far more information to go on. Information in Westeros is not at everyone's finger tips and even then there isn't that much of it. An example would be looking at the rule of the Starks in the north. Supposedly they have been kings for 8000 years but this is up for dispute according to both in world and out of world sources (george).

And correct me if I am wrong but I have never heard of a westerosi census?

They can still estimate since apparently no one has a standing army but just recruits how many they can get depending on the situation. They still know approx. the population of each region in relation to each other. People are very well aware that the Reach can assemble a bigger army than anyone else. They don't need exact numbers for that.

Some characters are aware that the Reach has the biggest population, that the north is sparsely populated etc. Also they often are well aware how many bannermen they can get so they must have some concept of how many people there are. Robb is aware of the strength of the Lannisters, Stannis of Renly's, Balon of the remaining Northerners, etc. They still have to estimate it on a general estimation of population, not every soldier is a noble and vice versa.

Unless Dorne had a population boom they must at least understand that they can't assemble half the strength of the Reach and bigger armies than or being on par with other regions (the Riverlands alone are a no-brainer in that regard).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The other question is why do the other houses even believe that lie? It's not too far fetched of course and they probably have not the same understanding of demographics but some must have surely deduced that it's not possible to field that man in Dorne and many saw approximately how many they could spare during RR. (in comparison to others).

I don't question that many Westerosi would buy it in, but that even arguably more clever people like Tyrion don't see through it strikes me as a bit odd.

In the real world, it was rare for the Lords to actually know what they themselves could field. There is no census, no numbers for population, hardly any for taxes, basically nothing to rely on except past experiences, which were often fudged intentionally. That counts double for foreigners.

Very true. Also relevant is that the majority of these forces are probably not full time professional warriors. While George seems to base most of his military on the Wars of the Roses/late Hundred Years War era armies, Septon Maribald? (the one in the Riverlands who takes Brienne to the Elder Brother) monologue seems to suggest that there are peasant levies as well.

Accepting this premise, then there is probably a hard core of professional, well trained, well equipped soldiers, probably about 10%, with more economically advanced regions such as the Westerlands being able to increase that further, while regions such as the Iron Islands it would probably be less, with the rest being semi trained, casual, part time soldiers called up to fight by their lords.

That's a fallacy. Almost all warriors are professionals with a lot of training and equipment worth several fortunes. Septon Merribald was a camp follower, not an actual soldier.

I don't want to go into depth this time because it's a bit OT and would cover a lot of space, but that's pretty well established in the books.

I have thought about about the North's population trends, and I am inclined to think that rather than becoming depopulated, there has rather been an internal population shift within the North. 1000 years ago there was no White Harbor. It was merely a stronghold called the Wolf's Den.

Today there is a city with a population of 50,000 - and based on Medieval trends, that means a population in the surrounding countryside supporting that city of 10 times that number.

It seems quite likely that White Harbor has gradually grown over the course of the last 1000 years, from first the Wolfsden, to a Saltpans like town, to a Duskendale sized settlement to the medieval London sized city it is today.

And that growth may have accelerated over the course of the last 300 years. Meaning that people who eked out a living on the Stoney Shore and in the New Gift, gradually migrated to the richer, warmer more fertile Southeast, settling in the trade artery that is the White Knife River basin, and in the lands around White Harbor, where making a living was much easier.

This would be a gradual migration over many centuries, rather than a sudden rush.

Personally, I no longer think the North is less populated today than it was 300 years ago. The population distribution is just different.

Very likely indeed.

[Stormland's Fury]

In the real world, it was rare for the Lords to actually know what they themselves could field. There is no census, no numbers for population, hardly any for taxes, basically nothing to rely on except past experiences, which were often fudged intentionally. That counts double for foreigners.

I agree with that.

But in terms of Westeros they seem to be weirdly aware of populations and even troop numbers in advance. For example some were aware of Stannis initial strength despite him being shut off from the rest for a year and recruiting foreigners.

[Bryden Tully]

There's a big difference between the military strength, and how many people the region can raise. I'd argue that a lot of it comes down to the individual lord and how well he trains his troops-I'm sure some richer houses like Hightower would have much better troops where as poor house would provide a lower quality of soldiers.

I saw someone metion it before about the 7 kingdoms-I always thought that included dorne-and that it was the Riverlands that wasn't actually a kingdom

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I agree with that.

But in terms of Westeros they seem to be weirdly aware of populations and even troop numbers in advance. For example some were aware of Stannis initial strength despite him being shut off from the rest for a year and recruiting foreigners.

Stannis is also reputed to know the strength of every house in the realm, which also wouldn't have been possible in the real world since Medieval armies were usually gathered on ad hoc basis and there were no set "strengths" that various lords or regions had.

So either the Westerosi organize their militaries pretty differently, or GRRM has messed up in that regard.

[Stormland's Fury]

There's a big difference between the military strength, and how many people the region can raise. I'd argue that a lot of it comes down to the individual lord and how well he trains his troops-I'm sure some richer houses like Hightower would have much better troops where as poor house would provide a lower quality of soldiers.

I saw someone metion it before about the 7 kingdoms-I always thought that included dorne-and that it was the Riverlands that wasn't actually a kingdom

it's established that the Lannister troops are better equipped for example which also comes into play.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Stannis is also reputed to know the strength of every house in the realm, which also wouldn't have been possible in the real world since Medieval armies were usually gathered on ad hoc basis and there were no set "strengths" that various lords or regions had.

So either Westeros organizes their militaries pretty differently, or GRRM has messed up in that regard.

That's just a claim. Stannis is better informed than almost anybody, but he doesn't know everything. For example, he had no idea about the clans. Dorne's true strength should be about as obscure.

[Stormland's Fury]

Stannis is also reputed to know the strength of every house in the realm, which also wouldn't have been possible in the real world since Medieval armies were usually gathered on ad hoc basis and there were no set "strengths" that various lords or regions had.

So either Westeros organizes their militaries pretty differently, or GRRM has messed up in that regard.

To be honest it's probably to serve the plot and make it easier for us as readers to get a concept of scope. Since the books are told exclusively as POV's the characters have to know those numbers, otherwise we wouldn't.

[Stormland's Fury]

That's just a claim. Stannis is better informed than almost anybody, but he doesn't know everything. For example, he had no idea about the clans. Dorne's true strength should be about as obscure.

The problem is that it's explicitely stated in AFfC that Dorne is the least populous region in Westeros. And apparently the regions announce their strengths publicly or else Doran would have no need to lie in the first place. If people know that Dorne is the least populous region and they know the approximately strength of each region, why would the smallest one suddenly have an army on par as the others? Both numbers are common knowledge enough for military commanders to convey strategies and non-military to comment on the size of population.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

The problem is that it's explicitely stated in AFfC that Dorne is the least populous region in Westeros. And apparently the regions announce their strengths publicly or else Doran would have no need to lie in the first place. If people know that Dorne is the least populous region and they know the approximately strength of each region, why would the smallest one suddenly have an army on par as the others? Both numbers are common knowledge enough for military commanders to convey strategies and non-military to comment on the size of population.

Yep. here BBE is just missing.

For example, Jon Snow tells Stannis he can get 2-3k men from the clans, and thats exactly what he gets.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The problem is that it's explicitely stated in AFfC that Dorne is the least populous region in Westeros. And apparently the regions announce their strengths publicly or else Doran would have no need to lie in the first place. If people know that Dorne is the least populous region and they know the approximately strength of each region, why would the smallest one suddenly have an army on par as the others? Both numbers are common knowledge enough for military commanders to convey strategies and non-military to comment on the size of population.

Yeah, Doran states that. Furthermore, not even Arianne knew Dorne's true strength.

Another point is that population size and army numbers correlate, but are not identical. The Iron Islands are the best example, but I'd estimate the Reach at halt the population of the North, but twice the army size. Economy and climate make a difference. I put the Reach at 2% and the North at 0.5%, the extremes for an agrarian society.

Yep. here BBE is just missing.

For example, Jon Snow tells Stannis he can get 2-3k men from the clans, and thats exactly what he gets.

Well, that's a difference of about 50%. And Jon Snow is a son of Winterfell, probably the best informed living where the North is concerned.

The 30,000 to 50,000? That's a difference of about 66%, not much more.

[Stormland's Fury]

Yeah, Doran states that. Furthermore, not even Arianne knew Dorne's true strength.

Another point is that population size and army numbers correlate, but are not identical. The Iron Islands are the best example, but I'd estimate the Reach at halt the population of the North, but twice the army size. Economy and climate make a difference. I put the Reach at 2% and the North at 0.5%, the extremes for an agrarian society.

Still they know exact numbers of inhabitants of King's Landing and so on. The other regions still have a concept of how many Dornishmen there are in relation to them. The Targaryens (now King's Landing), Stormlords and Reachmen still have probably records or know how many Dornish there usually are. It's not like they are completely clueless about the numbers especially if they were at war at several points. No one can hide completely its numbers if they are part of the same nation. And even then the IT must have an approximation as well.

They are not incidental of course, but if they are so well aware of how many men everyone can field then it is strange that there are suddenly so many soldiers unless they say their seniors and women fight too (which would fit Dorne) but still it's a bit far fetched. They often talk about how many they can field, which implies anything above those numbers becomes impractical. At the very least it would indicate to others that Dorne was forced to recruit almost every able inhabitant in their region, thus hampering their industry/economy.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Yeah, Doran states that. Furthermore, not even Arianne knew Dorne's true strength.

Another point is that population size and army numbers correlate, but are not identical. The Iron Islands are the best example, but I'd estimate the Reach at halt the population of the North, but twice the army size. Economy and climate make a difference. I put the Reach at 2% and the North at 0.5%, the extremes for an agrarian society.

Correct me if Im wrong, but arent Dornes armies called, and just waiting in camps for orders?. I got that idea for the books.

[Stormland's Fury]

Well, that's a difference of about 50%. And Jon Snow is a son of Winterfell, probably the best informed living where the North is concerned.

Well informed, but the Clans are so detached from others that this was still an extremely accurate estimation, even taking in consideration who could fight and not on top of calculating how many they could spare despite preparing for winter.

[ncb]

How many men did Rhaegar took to the Trident 40.000 or 45.000? 10.000 from Dorne and he had help from loyalists in the Riverlands and the Stormlands. So excluding the Royal Fleet and the Goldcloaks the Crownlands provided him 20 to 30.000? Is this right?

[Bryden Tully]

How many men did Rhaegar took to the Trident 40.000 or 45.000? 10.000 from Dorne and he had help from loyalists in the Riverlands and the Stormlands. So excluding the Royal Fleet and the Goldcloaks the Crownlands provided him 20 to 30.000? Is this right?

It always seems like way too much to have 40,000 at the Trident- I mean it's 10,000 dornish meaning you need to get 30,000 from the crownlands which seems strange since they just lost the battle of the bells

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Still they know exact numbers of inhabitants of King's Landing and so on. The other regions still have a concept of how many Dornishmen there are in relation to them. The Targaryens (now King's Landing), Stormlords and Reachmen still have probably records or know how many Dornish there usually are. It's not like they are completely clueless about the numbers especially if they were at war at several points. No one can hide completely hide it's numbers if they are part of the same nation. And even then the IT must have an approximation as well.

They are not incidental of course, but if they are so well aware of how many men everyone can field then it is strange that they suddenly so many unless they say their old an women fight too (which would fit Dorne) but still it's a bit far fetched. They often talk about how many they can field, which implies anything above those numbers becomes impractical. At the very least it would indicate to others that Dorne was forced to recruit almost every able inhabitant in their region, thus hampering their industry/economy.

No, they don't. I've never seen a precise number for KL, only a rough estimate of about 500,000. Furthermore, that's just cities. The landscape, where the vast majority lives, is less well-known.

Dorne never fielded it's entire strength while in the 7Kingdoms. Only a part. And of course the economy is the limit for the numbers, as always.

snip

You may wish to spoiler that.

Two armies are in camps in Arianne's spoiler chapters, but there aren't any numbers given, nor would they be the entire strength of Dorne.

Well informed, but the Clans are so detached from others that this was still an extremely accurate estimation, even taking in consideration who could fight and not on top of calculating how many they could spare despite preparing for winter.

Ned Stark visited the Clans several times, and they'd tell him the truth as precise as they themselves could guess. Furthermore, smaller numbers make for more accurate guesses.

How many men did Rhaegar took to the Trident 40.000 or 45.000? 10.000 from Dorne and he had help from loyalists in the Riverlands and the Stormlands. So excluding the Royal Fleet and the Goldcloaks the Crownlands provided him 20 to 30.000? Is this right?

40,000. Nevertheless, that's mostly Stormlanders and Riverlanders. JonCon's old army and reinforcements form Darry and such. The Crownlands didn't provide much, even though we can't be certain either way.